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IMG Residency Match Forum International Medical Graduates (IMGs) discussing the residency matching process.


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  #1  
Old 11-12-2015
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Correct Answer Pre Match Bronx

Hey everybody! I got a pre match offer from Bronx, I am super excited.
I have another 3 interviews left, What should I do? I was very elated initially and talked to some residents already in the program, I know somebody who took the pre match offer only to regret later on , in March, people with lesser scores matched in programs that he would have preferred. They say the commute is a bitch there. And also some people whom I talked with say that I might be better off in my home country.

But still a degree is a degree. My other interviews are from Chicago and Pennsylvania. What Should I do?? Should I take it or wait from other progams that are close to my home and family. I don't seem to have an answer,

I know people who matched with just 1 interview, Why can't that happen to me ?

Did anybody else get an offer?
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  #2  
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Congrats for the offer! Its a very difficult question to answer.

There has been people with as many as 6 interviews last year that did not match that I know of, another that I personally know who matched at their 9th choice. At the same time there have been people who have matched with just a couple of interviews in hand.

It comes down to a trade-off between taking a prematch offer at a bad/mediocre program and how comfortable you are with potentially not matching and trying again next year. This is a question you can best answer

All the best!
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  #3  
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And how much scores did they have? People with 235 above got matched at there 1st 2nd preference, I know that for a fact..
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How long after the interview did they offer you the prematch? I know its a difficult decision, but if you have good credentials and a decent number of interviews, I would not consider it. Its still november and a lot of programs send out invites in Dec and even Jan. Good luck!
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  #5  
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After almost a month.. I have a number of interviews left as well...

Last edited by Manny S; 11-12-2015 at 12:26 PM. Reason: grammatical error
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny S View Post
After almost a month.. I have a number of interviews left as well...
Is it Bronx Lebanon? Which specialty is it?
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Internal medicine in St. Barnabus.. The seniors I talk to told me not to.. I have 3 other good programs lined up... Not taking that.. I got 240 and 242.. I should not have to settle.. It is not that competitive..

And Isn't pre match about getting good candidates rather than matching candidates that are not good enough to match anywhere else??

Last edited by Manny S; 11-12-2015 at 04:55 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny S View Post
Internal medicine in St. Barnabus.. The seniors I talk to told me not to.. I have 3 other good programs lined up... Not taking that.. I got 240 and 242.. I should not have to settle.. It is not that competitive..

And Isn't pre match about getting good candidates rather than matching candidates that are not good enough to match anywhere else??
With 240, 242, you are considered pretty competitive. How many interviews did you go? Was it a good mix of reach (university programs) or also safety program (community programs)? The number of total reach and safety will play a huge role in your decision.

Good Luck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mydream2016 View Post
another that I personally know who matched at their 9th choice
wow, that's worrisome
if it's not a secret, which scores did this guy have?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fentanylum View Post
wow, that's worrisome
if it's not a secret, which scores did this guy have?
The one that matched for the 9th was 220s for both steps and no attempts
The person who didn't rank with 6 interviews had 240s in both steps and a recent grad.

Having said that every case is different, some even match with just a couple of interviews
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  #11  
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How come the one with 220 got more than 9 interviews? and 240 got just 6 calls and not matched?
Sanity and logic tell me it should be the other way around, or the program directors were looking at the rank list upside down?

Then is it safe to conclude that residency match is a lottery??

Last edited by Manny S; 11-12-2015 at 08:18 PM.
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  #12  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny S View Post
How come the one with 220 got more than 9 interviews? and 240 got just 6 calls and not matched?
Sanity and logic tell me it should be the other way around, or the program directors were looking at the rank list upside down?

Then is it safe to conclude that residency match is a lottery??
If this is so... then the world is seriously gone insane (or the NRMP is anyway...). We are told over and over again that it's mostly about SCORES, SCORES, SCORES. Did the guy lack USCEs or good LORs? Was his English very bad? This is worrisome... or maybe we should start aiming for 200-220s in STEPS for better chances
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VenuSN View Post
If this is so... then the world is seriously gone insane (or the NRMP is anyway...). We are told over and over again that it's mostly about SCORES, SCORES, SCORES. Did the guy lack USCEs or good LORs? Was his English very bad? This is worrisome... or maybe we should start aiming for 200-220s in STEPS for better chances
To add some context to everyones queries,

For one, the guy with 6 interviews applied late by 2-3 weeks, not sure how much of an impact that has.
The other with 9+ did externships around the country making good connections at these places and applied to 400+ programs
Besides scores there definitely are other factors that affect number of interviews - such as connections, USCE, LORs, # of programs applied to, Location, etc.

For me personally the biggest surprise in terms of interview factors was location (more so even then my YOG of 2009).
I am in the 250s and 260s but did not get a single interview from PA, OH, AZ, NV, MA, GA, MO, IL, MI, MN, FL despite applying to several historically IMG friendly programs in those states where I also met their YOG criteria.
Whereas I know people who live in those areas with lower scores and similar USCE racking up interviews there.

Every program looks for something different, scores are definitely not the only factor.
Again I don't mean to put everyone in panic, there are just as many cases of people matching with just a couple of interviews.
In conclusion considering a pre-match should/should not be considered based on your individual confidence level.

Personally, I was only going to rank if I got atleast 12 interviews, otherwise I was going to take a pre-match.
Simple math, programs are interviewing 10-15 times the number of positions available
Because if we think its brutal this year, next year is going to be ruthless.

Last edited by Mydream2016; 11-13-2015 at 06:49 AM.
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  #14  
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If you can get pre-match position, it means your personality is fine. If your credentials are good and your interview invitation is anywhere near or above 10, you should be confident that you will get matched this year.
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This is a difficult question to answer.
I talked to a PD i whom I personally know very well, asking about such situations before going for the interview. She told me, if you get a pre-match take it, don't think too much.
For an IMG the most important thing is getting into the system.

You would only considering not taking it only if it is a very shitty program.

Otherwise don't give too much weight to hearsay
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  #16  
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Default time for some critical thinking!

Hey everybody! I got a pre match offer from Bronx, I am super excited.
Congrats on the offer Manny. you have every reason to be elated.

I have another 3 interviews left, What should I do?
this is a tricky situation. Do you have a deadline to accept the offer? or can you wait until you finish your other interviews?

I was very elated initially and talked to some residents already in the program, I know somebody who took the pre match offer only to regret later on , in March, people with lesser scores matched in programs that he would have preferred.
OK. lets be practical here. Scores are not everything in this process. there are people with 250's who do not match sometimes. Also, Just because you will participate in the match does not guarantee that you will match at a better program than the candidates who has lower scores than you. As a patient advocate and care taker there are far more personality traits that are given equal importance as scores themselves. If a Candidate with lower score has a great personality better suited for patient care provider, he has every chance to match at a better program . Now one may say/argue that he/she also has the best personality and in that case I would ask how would the Program’s know? are your other strengths documented or in other words are they mentioned in your LORs by other doctors whom you worked with??? Were you able to express yourself and your personality in the PS???

So don’t give much importance to what the other resident told you. Each profile is different.

To avoid confusion think of this pre-match offer as 'getting Matched' to your lowest ranked program. Would you be happy to get matched to this lower ranked program on your list or you would be better of not ranking the program and not matching at all?? No one can answer this for you. You are the judge here and make up your mind by analyzing the pro and cons.


They say the commute is a bitch there. And also some people whom I talked with say that I might be better off in my home country.
well its NY and in Bronx. Its one of the worlds biggest cities. Traffic will be high and so will be the living expenses... But all this is secondary since you applied to the program and this means you were interested in this program on first hand ..

And recently, I met some one(IMG visa-needed,2011yog) with 13 interviews and he had an iv at Bx-Lebanon. when I asked him if he was going to that iv, he told me some thing which gave me a different perspective. He said going to the iv as his seniors advised him that "the most important thing in US is to cross the bridge no matter how you cross it" and I feel he was absolutely right looking at this process called 'THE MATCH'.


But still a degree is a degree. My other interviews are from Chicago and Pennsylvania. What Should I do?? Should I take it or wait from other progams that are close to my home and family. I don't seem to have an answer,
OK. If I were you, I will ask my self the following questions..

1. Before the application process started, if someone came to me and offered this position, would I be happy to take it or not?

2. How many interviews was I expecting?
(If you received more than your expectation, your profile is good and everyone wants to see you in person which is very good & positive sign. But lets say you received less than expected, which means there are some flags on your profile. these flags can be anything(not so great PS, OK waived LORs etc) which can adversely affect your profile.

As someone mentioned on facebook, the truth is that the 15 min interview with the PD's does not alone guarantee you a higher rank in their list but a bad interview will definitely mean you will ranked lower.

One ex chief resident told me that the rank list is already done(75%) even before the interviews start and the list is adjusted based on the interview performance by the candidates and cancellations.

if you combine the above two points, the number of expected interviews tells you how like-able or match-able your profile is.

good profiles like yours should receive around 10% interviews. if you did not receive, try to analyze the reasons and this will help you make a decision. )
3. Family. How would my taking the offer affect my family?


I know people who matched with just 1 interview, Why can't that happen to me ?
this brings me to the golden question "how many iv's are good enough iv's" ?
Answering this is a little hard since most of the statistics and match threads on online forums do not mention about the 'number of programs a candidate applied to' !

lets consider this scenario, two candidates A and B with similar profiles. Candidate A got 10 IV’s after applying to 30 programs and Candidate B got 15 after applying to 250 programs. In this scenario, even though both have a similar profile, who has more chance of matching? Can we say that B has more chances since he is attending 5 more IV's than A ? No, at least not in my opinion. That is the reason I consider the invite % as a indicator of profile strength than the number of invites.

Lets have a look at the match data statistics for your question “, Why can't that happen to me ?” well it can happen with you and also it cannot. You mentioned you have 5 interviews at this point of time and one them is a prematch, so you will effectively be going to the Match with 4 contiguous ranks in this specialty . IMG’s in 2014, 140 candidates matched while 125 did not match with 4 contiguous ranks.


Please make a careful consideration. every profile is different and every one can suggest you what they think. but you are the one who know the best for you. I hope this helps.

Last edited by usav; 11-16-2015 at 06:32 AM. Reason: grammar
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  #17  
Old 11-16-2015
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I didn't take the pre match offer, but now I am kind of nervous about my decision. One of my friends had scores of 257/265/pass 1st attempt/2013 grad/5 months USCE and had 25+ IVs for IM, had attended just 4 interviews till now and took the prematch for IM at St Barnabas.
Is getting a spot in internal medicine getting so hard that people with great credentials are opting for prematch? I feel I missed a golden opportunity. I have 5 IVs. Have my fingers crossed and hoping for the best .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usav View Post
Hey everybody! I got a pre match offer from Bronx, I am super excited.
Congrats on the offer Manny. you have every reason to be elated.

I have another 3 interviews left, What should I do?
this is a tricky situation. Do you have a deadline to accept the offer? or can you wait until you finish your other interviews?

I was very elated initially and talked to some residents already in the program, I know somebody who took the pre match offer only to regret later on , in March, people with lesser scores matched in programs that he would have preferred.
OK. lets be practical here. Scores are not everything in this process. there are people with 250's who do not match sometimes. Also, Just because you will participate in the match does not guarantee that you will match at a better program than the candidates who has lower scores than you. As a patient advocate and care taker there are far more personality traits that are given equal importance as scores themselves. If a Candidate with lower score has a great personality better suited for patient care provider, he has every chance to match at a better program . Now one may say/argue that he/she also has the best personality and in that case I would ask how would the Programís know? are your other strengths documented or in other words are they mentioned in your LORs by other doctors whom you worked with??? Were you able to express yourself and your personality in the PS???

So donít give much importance to what the other resident told you. Each profile is different.

To avoid confusion think of this pre-match offer as 'getting Matched' to your lowest ranked program. Would you be happy to get matched to this lower ranked program on your list or you would be better of not ranking the program and not matching at all?? No one can answer this for you. You are the judge here and make up your mind by analyzing the pro and cons.


They say the commute is a bitch there. And also some people whom I talked with say that I might be better off in my home country.
well its NY and in Bronx. Its one of the worlds biggest cities. Traffic will be high and so will be the living expenses... But all this is secondary since you applied to the program and this means you were interested in this program on first hand ..

And recently, I met some one(IMG visa-needed,2011yog) with 13 interviews and he had an iv at Bx-Lebanon. when I asked him if he was going to that iv, he told me some thing which gave me a different perspective. He said going to the iv as his seniors advised him that "the most important thing in US is to cross the bridge no matter how you cross it" and I feel he was absolutely right looking at this process called 'THE MATCH'.


But still a degree is a degree. My other interviews are from Chicago and Pennsylvania. What Should I do?? Should I take it or wait from other progams that are close to my home and family. I don't seem to have an answer,
OK. If I were you, I will ask my self the following questions..

1. Before the application process started, if someone came to me and offered this position, would I be happy to take it or not?

2. How many interviews was I expecting?
(If you received more than your expectation, your profile is good and everyone wants to see you in person which is very good & positive sign. But lets say you received less than expected, which means there are some flags on your profile. these flags can be anything(not so great PS, OK waived LORs etc) which can adversely affect your profile.

As someone mentioned on facebook, the truth is that the 15 min interview with the PD's does not alone guarantee you a higher rank in their list but a bad interview will definitely mean you will ranked lower.

One ex chief resident told me that the rank list is already done(75%) even before the interviews start and the list is adjusted based on the interview performance by the candidates and cancellations.

if you combine the above two points, the number of expected interviews tells you how like-able or match-able your profile is.

good profiles like yours should receive around 10% interviews. if you did not receive, try to analyze the reasons and this will help you make a decision. )
3. Family. How would my taking the offer affect my family?


I know people who matched with just 1 interview, Why can't that happen to me ?
this brings me to the golden question "how many iv's are good enough iv's" ?
Answering this is a little hard since most of the statistics and match threads on online forums do not mention about the 'number of programs a candidate applied to' !

lets consider this scenario, two candidates A and B with similar profiles. Candidate A got 10 IVís after applying to 30 programs and Candidate B got 15 after applying to 250 programs. In this scenario, even though both have a similar profile, who has more chance of matching? Can we say that B has more chances since he is attending 5 more IV's than A ? No, at least not in my opinion. That is the reason I consider the invite % as a indicator of profile strength than the number of invites.

Lets have a look at the match data statistics for your question ď, Why can't that happen to me ?Ē well it can happen with you and also it cannot. You mentioned you have 5 interviews at this point of time and one them is a prematch, so you will effectively be going to the Match with 4 contiguous ranks in this specialty . IMGís in 2014, 140 candidates matched while 125 did not match with 4 contiguous ranks.


Please make a careful consideration. every profile is different and every one can suggest you what they think. but you are the one who know the best for you. I hope this helps.
Thanks for the excellent post. What do you mean by contiguous ranks? How many should you have to be almost certain of matching??
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  #19  
Old 11-17-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny S View Post
I didn't take the pre match offer, but now I am kind of nervous about my decision. One of my friends had scores of 257/265/pass 1st attempt/2013 grad/5 months USCE and had 25+ IVs for IM, had attended just 4 interviews till now and took the prematch for IM at St Barnabas.
Is getting a spot in internal medicine getting so hard that people with great credentials are opting for prematch? I feel I missed a golden opportunity. I have 5 IVs. Have my fingers crossed and hoping for the best .

Hello Manny, its alright. you have taken a decision about your career and you will have to stick with it now. no point being nervous. just use the confidence you got form the pre-match experience which definitely says you got it in you to Match.

I am not a psychologist but, but it is human psyche to want more for what we do not possess. so it ok to feel confused but please remember that the reason you dint want to go there was that you were aiming high and lets keep it like that! i wish you good luck with all the interviews.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkmann View Post
Thanks for the excellent post. What do you mean by contiguous ranks? How many should you have to be almost certain of matching??
no problem. happy to help and in fact Iam glad that you found the post helpful.

Contiguous ranks:
The number of contiguous ranks is the number of programs ranked in the first-choice specialty before a program in another specialty appears on the applicant's rank order list ( form NRMP)


example: if a candidate applied for im, fm and peds and lets say he had 6, 4 and 3 iv's respectively.

the maximum length of the rank order list for such a candidate is 13 programs in which the IM(assuming first priority) can have the highest contiguous ranks of 6.

the list can look like this if he decides to rank all programs.
LIST 1

IM1
IM2
.
.
.
IM6
FM1
.
.
FM4
PEDS1
.
.
PEDS3

here the Contiguous ranks in his first choice specialty IM is 6


But the candidate can also do some thing like this
LIST2

IM1
IM2
FM1
PEDS1
IM3
IM4
PEDS2
PEDS3
FM2
FM3
FM4

in this case, the max contiguous ranks for his first choice specialty IM is 2. NRMP recommends LIST 1 style rank order lists. I would like to let you know that even Iam skeptical about that recommendation and I would like to learn more about it.

Coming to your number of contiguous ranks for highest match probability is some where around 20 for IM. please see the attached snapshot from 2014 Nrmp match outcomes for IMG.
Attached Thumbnails
Pre Match Bronx-2015-11-17-09_20_21-sametime-appshare-highlighter.png  
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  #21  
Old 11-17-2015
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Thanks again. I was under the impression if you had over 6 interviews the match rate was over 90%, but according to that chart, even with 9 interviews (which I have) it's only around 80%. That's worrisome.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkmann View Post
Thanks again. I was under the impression if you had over 6 interviews the match rate was over 90%, but according to that chart, even with 9 interviews (which I have) it's only around 80%. That's worrisome.
just take a note that the graph only presents the data for first choice specialty . What I mean to say is, in the LIST1 above, if the candidate matched to FM1 while his first 6 ranks were in IM, the data shows him as 'UNMATCHED' in IM !!

Last edited by usav; 11-18-2015 at 05:06 AM.
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  #23  
Old 11-18-2015
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Default Prematch

Hello Manny S, do u have any idea how long they take to offer prematch? I know u got almost 1 month later. Any other thought about that? Thank u and wish u best of luck
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Old 11-18-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saikat View Post
Hello Manny S, do u have any idea how long they take to offer prematch? I know u got almost 1 month later. Any other thought about that? Thank u and wish u best of luck
That's right. I got the offer almost 4 weeks after my interview. I know a few people getting the offer within one or two weeks of the interview. One month after the interview seem to be the latest you should expect a offer. If one doesn't hear even after one month, then chances of premach offer are not bright.
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  #25  
Old 11-18-2015
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How long did they give you to accept an offer
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  #26  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny S View Post
That's right. I got the offer almost 4 weeks after my interview. I know a few people getting the offer within one or two weeks of the interview. One month after the interview seem to be the latest you should expect a offer. If one doesn't hear even after one month, then chances of premach offer are not bright.
Hi Manny S Do you have any idea about how many people do they interview a day??? Thank you
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  #27  
Old 11-19-2015
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Around 8-10 on interview days.

Last edited by Manny S; 11-19-2015 at 08:25 AM.
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  #28  
Old 11-20-2015
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I just got prematch offer from this program too... prematch programs have the reputation of being mediocre but this is not true, I dont know whether to take it or not but I will like to know what if I sign and then I want to decline?
they just gave me 8 days to give an answer, so Im feeling a little pressure cause I really like the hospital and the program, but still there is my fear of missing out...
pls someone any ideas
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  #29  
Old 11-20-2015
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When was your interview? Did they offer you on that day? Its a big decision. There is no right and wrong answer about that. If u like it, whats the problem to take it? Don't think too much, it will create confusion. If you have lots of good interviews then u can think. Best of luck
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  #30  
Old 11-20-2015
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my IV was Nov12, and I got the offer this tuesday..... Ive had so far 6 interviews with similar programs (i.e community affiliated... etc) but the beauty of this one compared to those is that is located on big apple and no more worries about matching after signing!
but I just wonder if I take it and signt the contract... can I decline later?
just a thought... there is always room for "what if"
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