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IMG Residency Match Forum International Medical Graduates (IMGs) discussing the residency matching process.


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  #1  
Old 04-15-2012
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Group talk Discrimination against IMGs and Bias towards AMGs

Hi all

Do you think there is bias in favor toward AMGs regarding step 1 score?


And it sounds discrimination against IMGs

One of the programs (of many others) requires USMLE step 1 score 220 for AMG
While for IMGs they require 240 minimum....

Come on ..is not this discrimination!!!!!
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Old 04-15-2012
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Default My opinion

All I know is that the US is giving us opportunities much better than our own countries did. You can't compare an AMG with a IMG. AMGs have paid a fortune and usually have very large debts by the time they are graduated. They are certainly used to the health care system. To program directors taking an IMG is a risk because they don't know where his LORs come from, they don't know how good his university is (they can't possibly get hold of all the universities in the world and which is good and which is less than good). They usually don't have to worry about the visa, they have USCE! All the factors determining eligibility for programs. Plus don't forget that they are citizens of this country, they are not going to hire IMGs in favor of AMGs.

Of course, there are no bias in grading Step 1 that's just non sense. I'm not even sure that AMGs get higher average scores than IMGs.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.
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Absolutely not !
Even if that was true about the program, which i don't think so, it is very unfair that you draw conclusions about a great health care based on what one program decides.

In addition, AMG's do fit easier in american health care than IMG. Do you imagine the great stress of transition between original and the american health style?
plus, if you want to talk about discrimination, have a look at the Europian health system !

I can go on and on. The bottom line is : NO! there is no such thing. If one deserves to be involved in US health system he will eventually get involved regardless of his status
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Will your country accept a US citizen over you into residency? I'm American and studying in Costa Rica and I know for sure that a Costa Rican will get a residency spot before I will. That's just how it is... You can't expect the US to accept you over an American. Come on, that's ridiculous!

Aside from that, in the US you have to go through A LOT to get into medical school (believe me I wanted to and it was so hard that I decided to leave and study elsewhere). Most countries accept kids into medical school right out of high school. That's how it is here in Costa Rica. In the US it's VERY hard to get in and you really have to be an excellent student. I would prefer someone like that over someone who could possibly be from a school that let them in just after high school. I've seen that out of the US, private medical schools are a business... It's a sad truth!
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If some programs want a higher score from IMGs, I think it is discrimination. If an IMG has a decent score (or the score they at least ask from an AMG), good LORs and enough clinical experience, there would be no reason to ask for a higher score.
That said, I don't think discrimination on the medicalsystem and medical education system is any different that in any other aspects of the "American life". It is just something you have to deal with and try to change, and a good way is having more IMGs that understand a diverse multicultural and multiracial population better.

But that is just, like, my opinion man.
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Default For Heaven's Sake !

People, I am an IMG myself like you guys, but pleeeease :

1) As an american citizen, would you rather be taken care of by an american resident or a foriegn one ? ( lets be realistic about it, I know that almost all of the IMGs who make it into residencies in the US are competent and smart doctors, but reality doesn't always need to obey common sense ,,,, For I myself, would rather be treated by a local doctor in my home country ) ....... Please don't interpret this as any kind of discrimination because it is not meant to be,, But this is how things are .. live with it.

2) WHY ON EARTH do we even dare to compare ourselves to AMGs with all the Visa problems, relative language barrier, ... etc

3) WE are NOT american citizens, thus , the American constitution doesn't apply to us.

If we had better offers we would've stayed in our home land, which only proves that the US is offering us more than our own countries are ! unfortunately !
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Some residents (AMGs) have told me they would have just rather gone straight to med school after high school because it just seems like a huge waste of time and money for them. Some said yes, it was fun and interesting, but in the end it was not really very relevant to my medical education. So I don't think those two extra years they spend in college makes a huge difference. It is obvious that graduates from different schools in different countries might have different strengths and weakness in their knowledge, but that is what the test is about. They are comparing you side to side with their graduates and if you are good enough to meet that standard it means you are just as good (at least on what they are testing). I know, tests are not perfect tools to evaluate knowledge but that is the one they are using.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Laura View Post
Will your country accept a US citizen over you into residency? I'm American and studying in Costa Rica and I know for sure that a Costa Rican will get a residency spot before I will. That's just how it is... You can't expect the US to accept you over an American. Come on, that's ridiculous!

Aside from that, in the US you have to go through A LOT to get into medical school (believe me I wanted to and it was so hard that I decided to leave and study elsewhere). Most countries accept kids into medical school right out of high school. That's how it is here in Costa Rica. In the US it's VERY hard to get in and you really have to be an excellent student. I would prefer someone like that over someone who could possibly be from a school that let them in just after high school. I've seen that out of the US, private medical schools are a business... It's a sad truth!
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Originally Posted by Dr_Laura View Post
Will your country accept a US citizen over you into residency? I'm American and studying in Costa Rica and I know for sure that a Costa Rican will get a residency spot before I will. That's just how it is... You can't expect the US to accept you over an American. Come on, that's ridiculous!

Aside from that, in the US you have to go through A LOT to get into medical school (believe me I wanted to and it was so hard that I decided to leave and study elsewhere). Most countries accept kids into medical school right out of high school. That's how it is here in Costa Rica. In the US it's VERY hard to get in and you really have to be an excellent student. I would prefer someone like that over someone who could possibly be from a school that let them in just after high school. I've seen that out of the US, private medical schools are a business... It's a sad truth!

That's a valid point Laura, why would an MG be chosen over an American ?! Doesnt make sense !

But don't you think that it's a bit ignornat to assume that a student who gets accepted in med school right after high school is less competent ? Most schools require a very high GPA in high school ( top 2% ) to let a student in, besides , ( or at least in my school ) most of us get really high scores in the USMLE ( ~250 ) which only proves you know what !

The fact that you couldn't make it into a school in the US says alot !
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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
That's a valid point Laura, why would an MG be chosen over an American ?! Doesnt make sense !

But don't you think that it's a bit ignornat to assume that a student who gets accepted in med school right after high school is less competent ? Most schools require a very high GPA in high school ( top 2% ) to let a student in, besides , ( or at least in my school ) most of us get really high scores in the USMLE ( ~250 ) which only proves you know what !

The fact that you couldn't make it into a school in the US says alot !
Wait one second my friend, I never said that I couldn't make it into a US school. Slow down... I was a registered nurse in the US before I decided that I wanted to become a doctor and I was 25 and I still had about 3 years worth of prerequisites before I could even dream of applying. I chose to leave because I (and my husband who was completing his Master's in physical therapy when we left) could get into a medical school right away here in Costa Rica and in the US I would have to wait until I was 28 before I could even start applying and there was a chance that I would have to wait another year or so to get in.... I'm 31 and I'm a couple of months away from finishing. I'm happy with the choice I made.

That said... I am only speaking from personal experience. Where I go to school, there are people that aren't great and they are there sitting next to me.... Maybe your school is an exception. I've heard of many countries in Latin America that are, just like I'm saying, money hungry. Can you pay???? You're in medical school!!!! I don't want someone who got in because they have influences to be my doctor. Most of them are slackers too!!!

About board scores... You can't compare yourself to the US students because they take the test after only 6 weeks of preparation or so.... I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have gotten a 250 if you studied for 6 weeks, even if you're school is the "best" in your country... I know people who got a 260 but prepared for a year... Come on!!!

I'm not fighting... Just reminding people that we shouldn't compare ourselves or try to "pity" ourselves about not getting in or it not being fair. 50% of us get in (well 40% if you're a non-US IMG) and that in itself is a lot. Of course they ALL get in.... IT'S THEIR COUNTRY!!!! What do you expect??? That they fill their residencies with IMGs because you got a 260 (after a year or preparation) and they got a 220 (after 6 weeks)????? Be serious...

Don't complain, you are obviously going to the US because you feel you have more opportunities there than in your own country, be grateful 40% get in, it could be 0%. If you don't like it, then you can just stay in your own country... Your choice!
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About board scores... You can't compare yourself to the US students because they take the test after only 6 weeks of preparation or so.... I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have gotten a 250 if you studied for 6 weeks, even if you're school is the "best" in your country... I know people who got a 260 but prepared for a year... Come on!!!
Key!

Laura, better not to argue with the disgruntled. This is exactly why PD's dont prefer IMG's. God complexes are limitless in them!
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Key!

Laura, better not to argue with the disgruntled. This is exactly why PD's dont prefer IMG's. God complexes are limitless in them!
patelMD I love you!!!!

How's your studying going? Have you taken more steps? What year are you planning on applying to the match?
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Originally Posted by Dr_Laura View Post
patelMD I love you!!!!

How's your studying going? Have you taken more steps? What year are you planning on applying to the match?


Nope! Havent taken CS or CK yet... CS is scheduled for next month but barely get time to study cause of hectic rotations. Ill be apply for this years match! How about you?
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Nope! Havent taken CS or CK yet... CS is scheduled for next month but barely get time to study cause of hectic rotations. Ill be apply for this years match! How about you?
I'm finish up my last semester... Still have to complete my internship here in CR during 2013.... Taking step 2 CS in July and CK in December. I'll be applying in Sept of next year with the help of God. You better stay in touch!!! You following me on youtube?
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I'm finish up my last semester... Still have to complete my internship here in CR during 2013.... Taking step 2 CS in July and CK in December. I'll be applying in Sept of next year with the help of God. You better stay in touch!!! You following me on youtube?
Forsure! Ill try my best to follow along and keep you updated! Oh and no, i havent been following along.. Link?
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Forsure! Ill try my best to follow along and keep you updated! Oh and no, i havent been following along.. Link?
http://www.youtube.com/user/omiganlode

We'll stay in touch that way, much easier. Subscribe to that I can have you under my subscribers, I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions to ask you next year.
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Old 04-16-2012
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Laura ,,

In my country, most of the students who leave to study medicine abroad are the ones who weren't accepted in local schools, and lets face it, they mostly are and will remain dumb !

I had a negative preformed idea about people who leave thier countries to study medicine, my expectation obviously doesn't apply in your case though !! Damn you blind generalization

Just to be fair, I took Step 2 CK during my clinical rotations, and did prepare for step one in 6 months, but that was three years after I was done with my basic studies and I was an intern ! so you see how things

But pleeease, AMGs study for step 1 in 6 weeks but prepre for it in 2 years !! that's what they say !
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Key!

Laura, better not to argue with the disgruntled. This is exactly why PD's dont prefer IMG's. God complexes are limitless in them!


~ Feel free to judge millions of people ! LOL
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~ Feel free to judge millions of people ! LOL
I wasnt judging, atleast i dont feel as if i was. Regardless the arguments presented by the "select" group of IMG's who feel they should accounted for under the US constitution in terms of no discrimination are not eligible in the first place, simply due to their legal status. In contrast, the US IMGs who state the constitutional laws arent enforced are correct in part, especially due to explicit LAWS stating Americans are priority in terms of employment eligibility. Obv non US IMGs will also think this is discrimination against them, yet it is just a law made to protect the best interests of citizens of a he country.

So depending on your situation, you are for the laws in place or you arent. No judgement required!


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I wasnt judging, atleast i dont feel as if i was. Regardless the arguments presented by the "select" group of IMG's who feel they should accounted for under the US constitution in terms of no discrimination are not eligible in the first place, simply due to their legal status. In contrast, the US IMGs who state the constitutional laws arent enforced are correct in part, especially due to explicit LAWS stating Americans are priority in terms of employment eligibility. Obv non US IMGs will also think this is discrimination against them, yet it is just a law made to protect the best interests of citizens of a he country.

So depending on your situation, you are for the laws in place or you arent. No judgement required!




I cannot disagree with that, I believe that equity does not necessarily imply equality ... Non-US graduates simply shouldn't expect to be treated as an equal.
it was your "limitless complexes" that i referred to as a judgement, but giving it a thought, it was no judgement indeed, but rather a rude remark.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
People, I am an IMG myself like you guys, but pleeeease :

1) As an american citizen, would you rather be taken care of by an american resident or a foriegn one ? ( lets be realistic about it, I know that almost all of the IMGs who make it into residencies in the US are competent and smart doctors, but reality doesn't always need to obey common sense ,,,, For I myself, would rather be treated by a local doctor in my home country ) ....... Please don't interpret this as any kind of discrimination because it is not meant to be,, But this is how things are .. live with it.

2) WHY ON EARTH do we even dare to compare ourselves to AMGs with all the Visa problems, relative language barrier, ... etc

3) WE are NOT american citizens, thus , the American constitution doesn't apply to us.

If we had better offers we would've stayed in our home land, which only proves that the US is offering us more than our own countries are ! unfortunately !
On your #3 item, for all that I have read and researched on line, I think you are wrong. I am not a lawyer or an expert on the U.S. constitution.

But if you google something like "foreigners under the American Constitution" you will get lots of information about it.

This one, for example:

http://www.yaliberty.org/posts/it-is...and-foreigners
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On your #3 item, for all that I have read and researched on line, I think you are wrong. I am not a lawyer or an expert on the U.S. constitution.

But if you google something like "foreigners under the American Constitution" you will get lots of information about it.

This one, for example:

http://www.yaliberty.org/posts/it-is...and-foreigners

Thanks for the link, it does clarify some points I must admit , my statement earlier was more of an assumption than a fact to me back then ! I just "assumed" that must be the case !

But the thing is : Do we ,as IMGs, expect to be fall under the American constitution BEFORE being accpeted in a program ? Like if you actually LIVE in the states you will definitely have your rights regardless of your nationality, but before stepping a foot in the US, do we expect equality? (( e.g : in the # of interviews we recieve or even the creiteria for interviews' selection ? ))

To cut it short, American universities or hospital require a letter from your home country that says you're leaving for educational purposes, and you're majoring in a speciality that your home country needs. AND YOU WONT BE GIVEN YOUR VISA UNLESS YOU HAND IN SUCH A DOCUMENT ! ( OR AL LEAST THAT'S THE CASE in my country ) ... so you see how "conditional" our "travel" to the Us is.
So BEFORE you get your VISA, don't expect much ! lol

~ I hope I'm wrong, and I reeeally hope PDs see us as an equal, but I know that simply can't be !
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Old 04-22-2012
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I don't care about the reasoning but I think any country has right to give more opportunities to its citizens and US should do it. By the way I am an IMG and thankful to American system for at least giving me a chance to prove myself in this country. According to me if I don't respect their rules, I should stay in my country instead of complaining.
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Hey Dr Laura are you the same who put videos about step 1 ?? If yes you deserve a big thanks n hug from me. I am taking step 1 in 2 months and those videos were really helpful n motivating.
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Hey Dr Laura are you the same who put videos about step 1 ?? If yes you deserve a big thanks n hug from me. I am taking step 1 in 2 months and those videos were really helpful n motivating.
Yes I am!!!! Thanks... Follow me on Facebook too
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Laura View Post

About board scores... You can't compare yourself to the US students because they take the test after only 6 weeks of preparation or so.... I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have gotten a 250 if you studied for 6 weeks, even if you're school is the "best" in your country... I know people who got a 260 but prepared for a year... Come on!!!

I'm not fighting... Just reminding people that we shouldn't compare ourselves or try to "pity" ourselves about not getting in or it not being fair. 50% of us get in (well 40% if you're a non-US IMG) and that in itself is a lot. Of course they ALL get in.... IT'S THEIR COUNTRY!!!! What do you expect??? That they fill their residencies with IMGs because you got a 260 (after a year or preparation) and they got a 220 (after 6 weeks)????? Be serious...
This is not the first time I've heard this and I'm not sure I actually agree. Sure many US students may only study for 6 weeks or so for the steps, however every tutorial, lecture and lab they’ve had for the first 2 years is geared toward sitting these exams. Add to this the fact that many of the IMGs do not have English as their first language, may have already graduated leaving years since they last studied their basic sciences and many are working 80 hour weeks as full time doctors. Considering these significant hurdles I think an IMG 250 is every bit as impressive as a US 250 regardless of the study period.

This however is not a statement of support for the original topic. To suggest IMGs should be placed side by side with AMGs in their own country is ridiculous. Every country favours their own graduates and citizens, that’s the way it ought to be. I’m trained in an English speaking first world country, however as an overseas born, internationally trained doctor I expect to stand way back in line – no dramas.
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you are absolutely right that an IMG scoring the same as an AMG is an awesome thing but as an IMG its unfair for me to be given the same privelige as an AMG. If i wanna be the part of some other country's system, i have to respect their rules and not complain about it.
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Originally Posted by Wallabie View Post
This is not the first time I've heard this and I'm not sure I actually agree. Sure many US students may only study for 6 weeks or so for the steps, however every tutorial, lecture and lab they’ve had for the first 2 years is geared toward sitting these exams. Add to this the fact that many of the IMGs do not have English as their first language, may have already graduated leaving years since they last studied their basic sciences and many are working 80 hour weeks as full time doctors. Considering these significant hurdles I think an IMG 250 is every bit as impressive as a US 250 regardless of the study period.

This however is not a statement of support for the original topic. To suggest IMGs should be placed side by side with AMGs in their own country is ridiculous. Every country favours their own graduates and citizens, that’s the way it ought to be. I’m trained in an English speaking first world country, however as an overseas born, internationally trained doctor I expect to stand way back in line – no dramas.
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The above post was thanked by:
Hitman (05-21-2012), Wallabie (05-21-2012)



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