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IMG Residency Match Forum International Medical Graduates (IMGs) discussing the residency matching process.


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  #1  
Old 04-01-2016
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Default seeking for a good advice!

I really need a good advice due to my complicated situation.
So here is my story: I graduated medical university in 2006 overseas, in eastern Europe. I was very successful student there, my main interest was surgery. After finishing med school, I decided to practice medicine in US, so got my F1 student visa and arrived in NY. I was very young at that time(23 y/o) and had lack of knowledge of US medical educational system, also my English was not good enough to pass USMLE exams. Consequently, due to a lack of information, I miserably failed my step 1. Than I decided to try USMLE CS in 2011(that was a very wrong decision)and failed it as well. After that, I decided to apply to medical school here. So luckily I got accepted at a very good DO school, in Long Island, NY. I successfully finished first semester, I showed my best in anatomy lab due to my previous experience and did very well on foundation sciences course. I was very happy there thinking that I had guaranteed career in front of me. I did well on neuroscience too, but due to my personal(family) issues I have failed next two courses by 1% each(got 69% and 70% was passing score), and I got dismissed from program with $90000 of student loan, and practically no chance for the admissions anywhere. Dean refused to reinstate me.
So, I decided not to give up and start my USMLE marathon once again. I can get a very good LoRs from my american professors.
I heard that being a US citizen increases your chances for residency match, so I can apply for the citizenship if it's worth it(currently I have a green card).
Do you have any suggestions what should be my next step, considering my financial situation?
Do you think it's worth taking another chance or I should give up and go home?
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  #2  
Old 04-01-2016
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you'll have to report your dismissal from US medical school on your ERAS

The reality is you are an International MD who could not handle US medical school, irrespective of the scores and circumstances, before you attended US medical school you had a chance, however small, after failing out of US medical school you have no chance

you should of took it up with your medical school at the time, you wouldn't of been the first to repeat a year.

no difference between green card or US citizenship, they don't cover up red flags

A USMD graduate, with multiple failures on their steps coupled with poor performance in medical school would be hard pressed to find a residency spot

good luck
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  #3  
Old 04-01-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kash_md View Post
you'll have to report your dismissal from US medical school on your ERAS

The reality is you are an International MD who could not handle US medical school, irrespective of the scores and circumstances, before you attended US medical school you had a chance, however small, after failing out of US medical school you have no chance

you should of took it up with your medical school at the time, you wouldn't of been the first to repeat a year.

no difference between green card or US citizenship, they don't cover up red flags

A USMD graduate, with multiple failures on their steps coupled with poor performance in medical school would be hard pressed to find a residency spot

good luck
So you think that even if I'll get high scores on step1/2(above 220), and pass CS, plus 1 year of good research, some publications and strong LoRs, still gonna have trouble matching?
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  #4  
Old 04-01-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vajix84 View Post
So you think that even if I'll get high scores on step1/2(above 220), and pass CS, plus 1 year of good research, some publications and strong LoRs, still gonna have trouble matching?
1) above 220 is not a high score. A 220 is below average in Step 1, Step 1 Average around 230 and Average Step 2 Score is now around 240

2) the impact of research is reduced significantly for applicants who aren't competitive / or who don't have the contacts to get into programs that value research ie IM University based programs (I believe research is much more valuable for neuro/surgery etc)

3) LoRs? what clinical experience will these LoRs refer to? Do you have recent clinical experience? you graduated 10 years ago, and you effectively have a 10 year gap, probably a 12 year gap by the time you apply

4) You failed out of american medical school, again, you HAVE to report this on your application, that is the nail on the coffin.

I don't want to sound mean, rude. Bottom line is, the day you matriculated into an American Medical school, is the day you effectively "erased" your previous MD degree. Just like an American who matriculates and drops out of medical school is not eligible for residency, in the eyes of programs, the second you left your DO school, you basically affirmed to Program Directors that you are not capable to be a physician in the USA. a passing performance on an exam, 1 day will not make up for failing out of medical school. I hate to point out the obvious too, medical school the second time around should theoretically be much easier, when you are seeing the material for the second time, this fact is obvious to program directors.

suggest asking this question on the "other" forum frequented by AMGs and multiple PDs if you are still in doubt

Just PM me and I'll direct you to the specific thread on the appropriate website
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Last edited by kash_md; 04-01-2016 at 07:33 PM.
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  #5  
Old 04-01-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kash_md View Post
1) above 220 is not a high score. A 220 is below average in Step 1, Step 1 Average around 230 and Average Step 2 Score is now around 240

2) the impact of research is reduced significantly for applicants who aren't competitive / or who don't have the contacts to get into programs that value research ie IM University based programs (I believe research is much more valuable for neuro/surgery etc)

3) LoRs? what clinical experience will these LoRs refer to? Do you have recent clinical experience? you graduated 10 years ago, and you effectively have a 10 year gap, probably a 12 year gap by the time you apply

4) You failed out of american medical school, again, you HAVE to report this on your application, that is the nail on the coffin.

I don't want to sound mean, rude. Bottom line is, the day you matriculated into an American Medical school, is the day you effectively "erased" your previous MD degree. Just like an American who matriculates and drops out of medical school is not eligible for residency, in the eyes of programs, the second you left your DO school, you basically affirmed to Program Directors that you are not capable to be a physician in the USA. a passing performance on an exam, 1 day will not make up for failing out of medical school. I hate to point out the obvious too, medical school the second time around should theoretically be much easier, when you are seeing the material for the second time, this fact is obvious to program directors.

suggest asking this question on the "other" forum frequented by AMGs and multiple PDs if you are still in doubt

Just PM me and I'll direct you to the specific thread on the appropriate website
Dear kash__MD I truly appreciate any reasonable comments and I thank you for that. I'm sure you are very knowledgable of this system, otherwise you would not be able to write these stuff.
But I would like to say something. So firstly, the score I mentioned(220) is the minimum I'm assuming to get, but of course I'm targeting the maximum.
Secondly, why do I HAVE to report my DO school failure to ERAS if it will ban me forever from matching, who cares about it if I don't mention, or what they can do about it? and why is my MD record erased? I just don't get it.
Then, I know maybe it sounds funny for you, but I actually was one of the strongest students in my class and my professors knew it very well, they promised a good research opportunity and a LoRs. My failure was not a consequence of me being lazy or not being able to study, but a big family issue that happened to me.
Also material and whole educational system was completely different in DO school, compare to my previous education, even some other schools I know in US have a very different programs. We had a comprehensive exams after every 2 weeks. So I actually passed more than 12 crazy exams, plus really tough anatomy lab practicals, osteopathic lab practicals and DPR lab practicals. We had SPs every 2 weeks as well, similar scenarios what you see at CS exam. This program was really tough, everybody admits that. More than 50 students out of 300 are dismissed so far that I know from that program.
I'm saying these stuff because I have a big passion for medicine, and I dedicated whole life to this profession, I almost grew up in operating room. I can't just give up on it, just because of my dean being a jerk.
So if you know some other forums that might be useful, please do me a favor and let me know about them. I really need to hear some other opinions.

Thank you again!
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  #6  
Old 04-01-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vajix84 View Post
Dear kash__MD I truly appreciate any reasonable comments and I thank you for that. I'm sure you are very knowledgable of this system, otherwise you would not be able to write these stuff.
But I would like to say something. So firstly, the score I mentioned(220) is the minimum I'm assuming to get, but of course I'm targeting the maximum.
Secondly, why do I HAVE to report my DO school failure to ERAS if it will ban me forever from matching, who cares about it if I don't mention, or what they can do about it? and why is my MD record erased? I just don't get it.
Then, I know maybe it sounds funny for you, but I actually was one of the strongest students in my class and my professors knew it very well, they promised a good research opportunity and a LoRs. My failure was not a consequence of me being lazy or not being able to study, but a big family issue that happened to me.
Also material and whole educational system was completely different in DO school, compare to my previous education, even some other schools I know in US have a very different programs. We had a comprehensive exams after every 2 weeks. So I actually passed more than 12 crazy exams, plus really tough anatomy lab practicals, osteopathic lab practicals and DPR lab practicals. We had SPs every 2 weeks as well, similar scenarios what you see at CS exam. This program was really tough, everybody admits that. More than 50 students out of 300 are dismissed so far that I know from that program.
I'm saying these stuff because I have a big passion for medicine, and I dedicated whole life to this profession, I almost grew up in operating room. I can't just give up on it, just because of my dean being a jerk.
So if you know some other forums that might be useful, please do me a favor and let me know about them. I really need to hear some other opinions.

Thank you again!
1) 50 students dismissed from a program would cause uproar in the United States, the 5 year graduation rate (decelerated / second degree / etc etc ) is about 98 percent
source https://www.aamc.org/download/379220...medschools.pdf

2) You have to mention it, because a) they ask you for the information b) it would be unethical to not mention it

see ---> forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/withdrew-from-md-start-do-afresh-have-to-report-on-eras.1176705/

lying by omission does not make it legal.

by not including the information, you are committing a match violation

If and when you are caught, then the following may apply:

b. In addition, the applicant may be barred from subsequent NRMP matches and/or identified as a match violator to participating programs for a period of one to three years or permanently, as determined by the NRMP. Violations committed prior to Match Day may result in the applicant being withdrawn from the match.

3) I said effectively "erased", in quotes "" means I did not mean it literally

4) I empathize with you and about your family situation, but I'm just trying to be real with you, before you spend years studying and wasting resources studying for exams with nothing to show for it. At this point it's inconsequential about what the circumstances were regarding your stint and dismissal from medical school in the US.

5) Google Student Doctor Network forums, General residency issues, ERAS and the NRMP Match subsection to get in touch with american PDs

6) it is wonderful you have a passion for Medicine, luckily there are many avenues for you to make an great impact in the medical field in the US

7) without your DO failure, you still would be hard pressed to find a residency program, with your multiple attempts, old YOG, with the gaps on your CV.

bottom line, a year of research and 3 days of testing won't make up for a decade

good luck to you
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2013 / 230s / 240s / CS 1st / 1 month USCE 4 Month Obs / 10+ pubs / 3 US LoRs / 1 year research experience / USIMG / Matched

Last edited by kash_md; 04-01-2016 at 10:37 PM.
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vajix84 (04-02-2016)
  #7  
Old 04-02-2016
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2) You have to mention it, because a) they ask you for the information b) it would be unethical to not mention it

see ---> forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/withdrew-from-md-start-do-afresh-have-to-report-on-eras.1176705/

lying by omission does not make it legal.

by not including the information, you are committing a match violation

If and when you are caught, then the following may apply:

b. In addition, the applicant may be barred from subsequent NRMP matches and/or identified as a match violator to participating programs for a period of one to three years or permanently, as determined by the NRMP. Violations committed prior to Match Day may result in the applicant being withdrawn from the match.

5) Google Student Doctor Network forums, General residency issues, ERAS and the NRMP Match subsection to get in touch with american PDs


bottom line, a year of research and 3 days of testing won't make up for a decade

good luck to you[/QUOTE]

When I said "50 dismissed", was wrong, I meant failing the course. Some of them got reinstated. But again, there were many smart and hardworking students with really high MCAT got dismissed or dropped out. These numbers are confidential and only faculty and students have access on the school statistics. Material itself was not a big issue, but the test questions that faculty made (questions can be tricky). There are a lot of details that you don't know about that school politics and I can't really say everything here. But the bottomline is that school is trying to filter the students who they suspect in failing the boards, instead of encouraging them to succeed.
Failed results will look "bad" on their statistics.

"3 days of testing" that you say, was actually 8 months of hard work. I basically covered more than 50% of the COMLEX/USMLE materials.

I believe, most unethical thing is the government's politics about medical students. If you get dismissed for certain reason, you end up with no future in medicine, insane amount of student loan which is impossible to pay in next 30 years, and your chances to get a new student loan to study something else is very low. Basically you get no life after that, you become enslaved by loan companies, who charges you with over 7% of interest. These loans can be paid only if you are a doctor or have a similar income.
Nobody thinks of failing in medical school, it just happens and it is a nightmare.
So, if I will report my DO failure to ERAS that will obviously bury my chances of matching. If I don't report, there is a big chance that ERAS will never find out(I don't think that IMG student's schooling record will become a subject of investigation), but if it will, then bans me for 3 years. So what's the point of reporting??? It is "UNETHICAL"? Ridiculous!
I haven't done anything unethical in my life. Not reporting the information that most likely will ruin the whole career, won't make "the unethical doctor"!

Anyways, I appreciate your effort in helping me, it's always useful to hear the second opinion.

Thank you Dr. Kash__MD
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  #8  
Old 04-02-2016
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you are welcome.

The 3 days of testing I am referring to, again in the eyes of a PD, its like great you passed 3 tests on 3 days but what have you done for 10 years in between? 1 year of research is not going to cover such a glaring gap. 50% percent material covered or not, you have nothing to show for it, I am not questioning your time in medical school and the circumstances surrounding your dismissal, fair on unfair it is what it is




a green card/ is not going to make an iota of a difference in your case

see NRMP match statistics table 7
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploa...2016_Final.pdf

more US citizens go unmatched than matched

4495 unmatched (give or take depending on # that withdrew for prematches)
2869 matched US citizen/GC IMGs in 2016

bottom line again OP is, you are a 2006 graduate, with major gaps, 2 failed attempts so far, even without ethically and legally reporting your stint in a US medical school, your chances of matching are poor. your chances are buried whether you report your DO failure or not.


it seems your mind is made up to take the exams, so go for it and good luck
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Last edited by kash_md; 04-02-2016 at 04:12 PM.
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  #9  
Old 08-18-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kash_md View Post
you'll have to report your dismissal from US medical school on your ERAS

The reality is you are an International MD who could not handle US medical school, irrespective of the scores and circumstances, before you attended US medical school you had a chance, however small, after failing out of US medical school you have no chance

you should of took it up with your medical school at the time, you wouldn't of been the first to repeat a year.

no difference between green card or US citizenship, they don't cover up red flags

A USMD graduate, with multiple failures on their steps coupled with poor performance in medical school would be hard pressed to find a residency spot

good luck

I agree with your explanation.
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