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IMG Residency Match Forum International Medical Graduates (IMGs) discussing the residency matching process.


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  #1  
Old 10-13-2012
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Smile Discrimination against IMGs & IMG strengths compared with AMGs

Perceived discrimination against IMGs (vs AMGs) in the selection process has been around for a while. This favouritism was a covert process over decades but during the last 2 years there has been an awareness to emphasise meritocracy in favour of dodgy nepotism (cannot be totally eliminated though).

This article is a good read for discrimination in Psych & FM (including the referenced articles)

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6920/10/5

The scrapping of post match scramble in favour of SOAP is also part of eliminating this favouritism.

I have personally spoken to 4 PDs in Surgery who feel old IMGs have the following credentials as a tribe (cannot be generalised)

1. Excellent clinical and surgical skills compared with AMGs
2. Higher scores
3. Easily adaptable and reliable
4. Easily trainable
5. Much more hardworking than AMGs

The only drawback maybe that some of us need a VISA and there also appears to be a concern among some insecure PDs that some IMGs are overqualified than the Chief resident and lead to conflict in clinical decisions. This can be overcome in PS and IV by clearly stating that one is willing to be trained and willing to follow hierarchy.


Dr Conrad Fischer himself mentions in his blog that there are 10 old IMG residents in his program > 40 years old

All those old IMGs who are fretting regarding time since graduation should really be optimistic that this restriction is only arbitrary and should not be a cause for concern for most busy programs in cities (maybe except for flagship ones like Harvard, Hopkins, Yale etc)

We do need to invite AMGs and PDs if any on the forum to comment!
Maybe the forum staff could facilitate this process.
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i see you are always trying to bring hope to all imgs and that s great and awesome
i hope we stop attacking ourselves and to be enthusiastic
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Default Let us all be optimistic & have fun

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Originally Posted by alanine40 View Post
i see you are always trying to bring hope to all imgs and that s great and awesome
i hope we stop attacking ourselves and to be enthusiastic
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.
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Old 10-13-2012
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Yes, i do agree with these facts. More often than not, we surpass them in certain aspects (but not all) owing to our different medical upbringing in our home countries. but we or any img for that matter can't do anything about it. there's always bias, politics also governs above all (as with any other society). But it is their game, we play by their rules, this is their society and we respect whatever their decision - fair or unfair.

We have no right to say its their fault or they're doing something bad or it needs action/solution or they need to explain these.

Think of it this way: No good parent would favor another child(img) over his own(amg).

So just pray, do what you can to get IVs, hope for the best & forget this racy issue.
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Originally Posted by MarkUSMLE View Post
I have personally spoken to 4 PDs in Surgery who feel old IMGs have the following credentials as a tribe (cannot be generalised)

1. Excellent clinical and surgical skills compared with AMGs
2. Higher scores
3. Easily adaptable and reliable
4. Easily trainable
5. Much more hardworking than AMGs

The only drawback maybe that some of us need a VISA and there also appears to be a concern among some insecure PDs that some IMGs are overqualified than the Chief resident and lead to conflict in clinical decisions. This can be overcome in PS and IV by clearly stating that one is willing to be trained and willing to follow hierarchy.

I understand what you're trying to do.

The points you've made that I've bolded, cannot be put into numbers, so therefore meaningless.

Also, the fact that IMG's have higher board scores can't be compared to in respect to "apples to apples".

AMG's take the exams during medical school, in between classes, research, extracurriculars.

IMG's in contrast take an average of 6 months for Step 1, 4 Months for Step 2 CK, and another 1-2 Months for Step 2 CS of DEDICATED sitting at home, studying for 8 hours/day. They need 1 year worth of dedicated study time inorder to meet or exceed results produced by their American counterparts. This is the #1 factor that PD's look at when they gauge IMG's with average or above average scores.

If you really wanted to make a fair comparrision, give AMG's a dedicated year to take the exams, the Step average will be +2SD above what it is now.

Also, like Dr. JPRizal stated, IMG's should be grateful they are even getting an opportunity. No other country gives the same opportunity. If America wants to favor its own, then its in their best interest.

PS: I'm an US-IMG.
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I practically agree with patelMD on all accounts.

I would also like to add:

- It is a complete lie that IMGs have higher board scores. Even with many spending up to a year to complete all the steps (stuff they should know from med school, especially those who are currently in med school or recent grads) the average is still lower than AMGs for those who match. I can substantiate this.

- To say outright that AMGs have worse clinical skills than IMGs, when AMGs spend all their time in a U.S. hospital actually taking charge of the patient, to me sounds complete hogwash. Please show me the evidence. In surgery it may be a bit different because some IMGs who match would have had previous surgical training in their own country. So one would not be comparing individuals at an equal level of training. Please compare an IMG PGY-1 with an AMG PGY-3 in surgery. Then please tell me if your sweeping statement still holds.


Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with the USA. I am not a citizen. Never lived there. Know no one from the USA. However, this 'us' and 'them' mentality is a shame. All IMGs understand that, in general, AMGs will be always preferred because they have undergone training accredited by the LCME. Therefore, to PDs, IMGs have training of unknown and suspicious quality. Do you blame them?!
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Originally Posted by patelMD View Post
I understand what you're trying to do.

The points you've made that I've bolded, cannot be put into numbers, so therefore meaningless.

Also, the fact that IMG's have higher board scores can't be compared to in respect to "apples to apples".

AMG's take the exams during medical school, in between classes, research, extracurriculars.

IMG's in contrast take an average of 6 months for Step 1, 4 Months for Step 2 CK, and another 1-2 Months for Step 2 CS of DEDICATED sitting at home, studying for 8 hours/day. They need 1 year worth of dedicated study time inorder to meet or exceed results produced by their American counterparts. This is the #1 factor that PD's look at when they gauge IMG's with average or above average scores.

If you really wanted to make a fair comparrision, give AMG's a dedicated year to take the exams, the Step average will be +2SD above what it is now.


Also, like Dr. JPRizal stated, IMG's should be grateful they are even getting an opportunity. No other country gives the same opportunity. If America wants to favor its own, then its in their best interest.

PS: I'm an US-IMG.
I agree with you completely that AMGs should be preferred over IMGs at all cost except for the part that i have highlighted in bold . IMGs have been trained to test in the way their country accepts it for eg we have been trained to write long lengthy papers for 3 hrs and viva exams that last 4 hrs and these are not SPs who take your exams but true specialized doctors again this is to clear and pass each subject, our exams are difficult to pass and to score a 70 % ( not percentile ) is a matter of pride and I am very sure even if we provide an AMG with an dedicated year he wont pass . the reason being we where trained to write such exams since school and the competition is fierce such that you have to literally work your ass to get into a secondary school and getting into MBBS is a big thing since you have 6500 seats in a state and 35000 students appearing for exam I doubt any AMGs would be able to face this .

Now to your fact that IMGs take a dedicated year to study the steps : Very true but how many IMGs know what books to read for USMLE . I didnt know much either till i came to this forum . Lack of guidance and knowledge has been a big factor leading to high failure rates in IMGs . We take a year off becoz we need to go back and read something that we read 5 years ago ( I doubt any AMG is so brilliant to remember biochem for 5 yrs ) plus we need to learn how to ans theses Qs which are now MCQs that to which are clinical . In need to adapt to this change and to remember what we learnt before i think 1 year is a short span and show the calibre of an IMG ( How many AMGs could adjust to our exam patterns in a 1 year ??? ) .

AMGs start UW from the beginning of their year and have revised twice or thrice by the time the are set for steps ( you can refer to SDN if you feel i am talking Bullshit ) and then they take a month of to revise , so its a 2 yr prep + 1 month revision + best guidance from seniors on what to read
. DO you still think this is less than 6 months a IMG takes for step 1 ?????........

I dont believe that we should be given preference over AMGs but feel its inadequate to say IMGs take a lot more time to get good scores ( the PDs you are talking about dont know **** about IMGs . I have meet the PD for IM in the top most university , surprisingly he's an Indian and has done his MBBS in INDIA , he saw my CV and grades but never questioned my 70 % in Mbbs becoz he knew what it meant but i guess the other PDs wont know this but I wont blame them for there notion that IMGs take more time for prep becoz its easier to comment when you dont know the story on the other side )

@ mattard : you are right its not true that all IMGs have better clinical judgement than AMGs but most of them do, reason we see 200 patients daily in our OPD ( daily outpatient clinic ) with 150 minimum this is easily way more than AMGs , i have done my away rotations in universities and dont think they even see half of this daily , certainly more patients more clinical knowledge . As far as Sx i have done two Sx ( though very small ones :hernia and hydrocele : not interested in Sx at all .. ) how many AMGs have done this in med school ??? ( not Sx internship or residency )

for your Qs as to why IMG have lower score see my above explanation and I feel you are truly an AMG : you have just three posts in the forum and all biased towards IMGs but I am truly an IMG and need Visa no GC ......

Let us not fight on who is better or whether there is a bias ( there is one and it should be its their COUNTRY ) so I respect USA to give us a better future but struggle is a part of life and we can make it no matter tough it is.

Good luck to everyone !

Last edited by Hitman; 10-13-2012 at 01:29 PM.
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I agree with you completely that AMGs should be preferred over IMGs at all cost except for the part that i have highlighted in bold . IMGs have been trained to test in the way their country accepts it for eg we have been trained to write long lengthy papers for 3 hrs and viva exams that last 4 hrs and these are not SPs who take your exams but true specialized doctors again this is to clear and pass each subject, our exams are difficult to pass and to score a 70 % ( not percentile ) is a matter of pride and I am very sure even if we provide an AMG with an dedicated year he wont pass . the reason being we where trained to write such exams since school and the competition is fierce such that you have to literally work your ass to get into a secondary school and getting into MBBS is a big thing since you have 6500 seats in a state and 35000 students appearing for exam I doubt any AMGs would be able to face this .

Now to your fact that IMGs take a dedicated year to study the steps : Very true but how many IMGs know what books to read for USMLE . I didnt know much either till i came to this forum . Lack of guidance and knowledge has been a big factor leading to high failure rates in IMGs . We take a year off becoz we need to go back and read something that we read 5 years ago ( I doubt any AMG is so brilliant to remember biochem for 5 yrs ) plus we need to learn how to ans theses Qs which are now MCQs that to which are clinical . In need to adapt to this change and to remember what we learnt before i think 1 year is a short span and show the calibre of an IMG ( How many AMGs could adjust to our exam patterns in a 1 year ??? ) .

AMGs start UW from the beginning of their year and have revised twice or thrice by the time the are set for steps ( you can refer to SDN if you feel i am talking Bullshit ) and then they take a month of to revise , so its a 2 yr prep + 1 month revision + best guidance from seniors on what to read
. DO you still think this is less than 6 months a IMG takes for step 1 ?????........

I dont believe that we should be given preference over AMGs but feel its inadequate to say IMGs take a lot more time to get good scores ( the PDs you are talking about dont know **** about IMGs . I have meet the PD for IM in the top most university , surprisingly he's an Indian and has done his MBBS in INDIA , he saw my CV and grades but never questioned my 70 % in Mbbs becoz he knew what it meant but i guess the other PDs wont know this but I wont blame them for there notion that IMGs take more time for prep becoz its easier to comment when you dont know the story on the other side )

@ mattard : you are right its not true that all IMGs have better clinical judgement than AMGs but most of them do, reason we see 200 patients daily in our OPD ( daily outpatient clinic ) with 150 minimum this is easily way more than AMGs , i have done my away rotations in universities and dont think they even see half of this daily , certainly more patients more clinical knowledge . As far as Sx i have done two Sx ( though very small ones :hernia and hydrocele : not interested in Sx at all .. ) how many AMGs have done this in med school ??? ( not Sx internship or residency )

for your Qs as to why IMG have lower score see my above explanation and I feel you are truly an AMG : you have just three posts in the forum and all biased towards IMGs but I am truly an IMG and need Visa no GC ......

Let us not fight on who is better or whether there is a bias ( there is one and it should be its their COUNTRY ) so I respect USA to give us a better future but struggle is a part of life and we can make it no matter tough it is.

Good luck to everyone !
I think Hitman is just trying to encourage IMGs and he is right in most of his points.No doubts AMGs should be preferred and most agree on this, but remember US gives chance to IMGs also,therefore no harm in encouraging each other.
Rest ,we all are mature,so guys lets take things in stride and not make an issue out of it.
Good luck to all in their pursuits.
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  #9  
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Its really all about being humble. For any IMG to come on, and carry themselves like "I deserve to be here blah blah blah" for whatever reason, is never justified. I know a 5th year surgery from an European country who came to do a research fellowship, and he kept doing that, and by the end of the 1st year, he realized that actually the US residents on his level knew more, and had more decisions on surgical management that he did. He spent almost 1 yr talking about "oh this is how we do it in my country", like a big chip on his shoulder. One wanted to ask him, well if you are so concerned with how it is done in your country, then why on earth are you in the US????

There is a reason why any IMG would want to come to the US for residency training. I find it absolutely hilarious that anyone would bring up scores, or anything. How is any PD supposed to know about the quality of education, or what really went on behind the scene. Its really not their job to know that. They are trying to train residents in the US circle, and so have no business trying to gauge the quality of education any where else.
Seeing 200 patients in clinic does not compare, cause quantity doesnt always justify quality any way, especially if no one really understands the level of supervision going on there.
Thats good if you got to do hernia or hydrocele surgeries in medical school, but that is not the point of medical training. I am a US-IMG who did my surgery clerkship in the US, and hernias are really no big deal. The point of a surgical clerkship in the US is teaching one about the need for medical vs surgical management for a patient, and being ready to recognize when one or the other is needed, the risks involved and the complications, and making a calculated decision. A surgery residency is where one is then expected to perfect their skills in learning about procedures, and being able to do certain procedures before graduation. So there is absolutely no need to even use this as any form of entitlement or prestige of any sort by anyone. I assisted with a limb amputation and a splenectomy, among many educationally enlightening stuff and they were cool, but why on earth would I now use it to justify my credentials.

Everywhere in the world, there is always discrimination between the local group and perceived outsiders. It is expected, so to be amazed or to think otherwise is funny.
The reason the post scramble was eliminated was because it was an absolutely silly and chaotic process. There is really nothing to discuss, and I dont see how this will go anywhere. No one is stopping anyone from subscribing to UW from day 1, the prob is that most people advocate reading Kaplan for months instead, because "thats what their seniors said to do".

For crying out loud, take a look at many NY progs such as Bronx Lebanon and see that Americans whether AMGs or IMGs make up a minority of the resident populations, and when one looks at the names of the PDs, Chairpersons and key faculty members, its obvious that nepotism plays a huge impact on that observation. So it happens everywhere. Also because of the insight that I have on this, even stated by a resident in the said prog, I will be open and say that "any one that is non Indian would be in dream world to believe that they could match into the surgery residency program at Bronx Lebanon". Now do you see AMGs going about on SDN and discussing that..."the perceived discrimination of AMGs at Bronx Lebanon?"
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Default IMG steps and working fulltime

First of all, I really thank this country for offering my the opportunity of try to become an MD in this country.

I really understand my position as a foreign physician, there is no point to make comparison between AMG and IMG, all of us have our own lights.

But answering to some who said that IMG study for 6 month sitting in a chair, that is not true and it bother my so much...
me like other friend have to study while working fulltime, get desent scores and still be proud.

We all work very hard.
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Originally Posted by patelMD View Post
I understand what you're trying to do.

The points you've made that I've bolded, cannot be put into numbers, so therefore meaningless.

Also, the fact that IMG's have higher board scores can't be compared to in respect to "apples to apples".

AMG's take the exams during medical school, in between classes, research, extracurriculars.

IMG's in contrast take an average of 6 months for Step 1, 4 Months for Step 2 CK, and another 1-2 Months for Step 2 CS of DEDICATED sitting at home, studying for 8 hours/day. They need 1 year worth of dedicated study time inorder to meet or exceed results produced by their American counterparts. This is the #1 factor that PD's look at when they gauge IMG's with average or above average scores.

If you really wanted to make a fair comparrision, give AMG's a dedicated year to take the exams, the Step average will be +2SD above what it is now.

Also, like Dr. JPRizal stated, IMG's should be grateful they are even getting an opportunity. No other country gives the same opportunity. If America wants to favor its own, then its in their best interest.

PS: I'm an US-IMG.
Are you for real? sitting in the chair? I wish!!!!40 hours a week at the hospital+ nights+overtime+ 7-th grade my daughters homework, while AMG are behind the books every day, seeing patients every day at clinics, theirs scores shouldnt be below 250, no matter what specialty they aiming to!
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Are you for real? sitting in the chair? I wish!!!!40 hours a week at the hospital+ nights+overtime+ 7-th grade my daughters homework, while AMG are behind the books every day, seeing patients every day at clinics, theirs scores shouldnt be below 250, no matter what specialty they aiming to!
Listen folks there is really no need to go back and forth on this.

Clerkships dont necessarily prepare one for stuff on the boards, most people spend time in clinic doing scut work anyway, pushing labs, and the long hrs dont equate with doing well, because at the end of the day one still needs to study for it.
Some AMGs have families too, they have wives/husbands/kids/family, and also have to take care of them (oh and we all know how expensive it is to get daycare/nannies in the US), in addition to performing on top form. Not many go right after undergrad, some spend years working in other specialties and then work hard to go back. Life happens regardless.

Yes I do know many IMGs who spend mths, even on the forum or in person solely dedicated to studying for the USMLE, I know a whole bunch, and I encourage it, because at the end of the day folks do expect one to have a good USMLE score regardless. On the other hand, yes there are a few like you, who are studying for it at home, and have to do clinic work among other things.

IT IS NOT EASY FOR ANYONE PERIOD!!!! Who are you to determine that a 250 is justification for knowing anything? This is the same reason why there are people with these scores who do not match. Its the same chip on the shoulder attitude, it will never get anyone anywhere.

All I'm saying is that no one, including myself has any right to get mad at any AMG because they feel the system isnt making it easier for IMGs. The US is still one of the vary rare countries that lets non citizens do residency training. Canada doesnt even let AMGs do residency training there, so much for being a next door neighbor! How many articles or posts have been created online?? The more we go on about it, one day we'll actually see a law passed in DC, that now officially shuts the door, and at that point we can all shut up.

Its like folks are coming on here and thinking "Silly PDs for accepting those AMGs with poor clinical judgement and skills, and mediocre knowledge over me the IMG with 260+ and stellar clinical skills". That to me is completely absurd.
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Originally Posted by Lena View Post
Listen folks there is really no need to go back and forth on this.

Clerkships dont necessarily prepare one for stuff on the boards, most people spend time in clinic doing scut work anyway, pushing labs, and the long hrs dont equate with doing well, because at the end of the day one still needs to study for it.
Some AMGs have families too, they have wives/husbands/kids/family, and also have to take care of them (oh and we all know how expensive it is to get daycare/nannies in the US), in addition to performing on top form. Not many go right after undergrad, some spend years working in other specialties and then work hard to go back. Life happens regardless.

Yes I do know many IMGs who spend mths, even on the forum or in person solely dedicated to studying for the USMLE, I know a whole bunch, and I encourage it, because at the end of the day folks do expect one to have a good USMLE score regardless. On the other hand, yes there are a few like you, who are studying for it at home, and have to do clinic work among other things.

IT IS NOT EASY FOR ANYONE PERIOD!!!! Who are you to determine that a 250 is justification for knowing anything? This is the same reason why there are people with these scores who do not match. Its the same chip on the shoulder attitude, it will never get anyone anywhere.

All I'm saying is that no one, including myself has any right to get mad at any AMG because they feel the system isnt making it easier for IMGs. The US is still one of the vary rare countries that lets non citizens do residency training. Canada doesnt even let AMGs do residency training there, so much for being a next door neighbor! How many articles or posts have been created online?? The more we go on about it, one day we'll actually see a law passed in DC, that now officially shuts the door, and at that point we can all shut up.

Its like folks are coming on here and thinking "Silly PDs for accepting those AMGs with poor clinical judgement and skills, and mediocre knowledge over me the IMG with 260+ and stellar clinical skills". That to me is completely absurd.
Honey, nobody is getting mad at AMGs! But l disagree that its the same hard to go through the whole process for AMGs than for IMGs. While back when I was a medical student in my country, we had students from India also in my medical school. They struggled with language, they struggled financially and of course they were barely able to pass our boards,now Im in the same shoes.
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Honey, nobody is getting mad at AMGs! But l disagree that its the same hard to go through the whole process for AMGs than for IMGs. While back when I was a medical student in my country, we had students from India also in my medical school. They struggled with language, they struggled financially and of course they were barely able to pass our boards,now Im in the same shoes.
You know how we say? "In your own house even walls will help you out"
I mean medical education isnt easy for anyone (even passing any USMLE step is a feat because the regular person off the street wont be able to) but of course its easy for AMGs, it should be. The same way its easy for a UK citizen in the UK to get residency training, or an Irish citizen in Ireland to get residency training, its not a matter of whether they'll get it, but where it will be. They are already in the system, they should be allowed to stay put and continue.
People will always go with what they know and can vouch for. If I were a PD, I'd pick the person I was familiar with, who could get the work done, over a nameless person with better scores. We cant knock them for it, neither should we start postings on it. It seems to have picked up on all the forums because people are not happy with the lack of IVs perhaps. All this does is draw negative publicity, it really does not help. AMGs dont think about IMGs, or even other AMGs, they think of themselves, and their own app, and what they need to do. If AMGs decided to use AMA to attack IMGs, it'd be a big mess. Lets just let it be.
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Listen folks there is really no need to go back and forth on this.

Clerkships dont necessarily prepare one for stuff on the boards, most people spend time in clinic doing scut work anyway, pushing labs, and the long hrs dont equate with doing well, because at the end of the day one still needs to study for it.
Some AMGs have families too, they have wives/husbands/kids/family, and also have to take care of them (oh and we all know how expensive it is to get daycare/nannies in the US), in addition to performing on top form. Not many go right after undergrad, some spend years working in other specialties and then work hard to go back. Life happens regardless.

Yes I do know many IMGs who spend mths, even on the forum or in person solely dedicated to studying for the USMLE, I know a whole bunch, and I encourage it, because at the end of the day folks do expect one to have a good USMLE score regardless. On the other hand, yes there are a few like you, who are studying for it at home, and have to do clinic work among other things.

IT IS NOT EASY FOR ANYONE PERIOD!!!! Who are you to determine that a 250 is justification for knowing anything? This is the same reason why there are people with these scores who do not match. Its the same chip on the shoulder attitude, it will never get anyone anywhere.

All I'm saying is that no one, including myself has any right to get mad at any AMG because they feel the system isnt making it easier for IMGs. The US is still one of the vary rare countries that lets non citizens do residency training. Canada doesnt even let AMGs do residency training there, so much for being a next door neighbor! How many articles or posts have been created online?? The more we go on about it, one day we'll actually see a law passed in DC, that now officially shuts the door, and at that point we can all shut up.

Its like folks are coming on here and thinking "Silly PDs for accepting those AMGs with poor clinical judgement and skills, and mediocre knowledge over me the IMG with 260+ and stellar clinical skills". That to me is completely absurd.
Lets see , if Im an AMG, YOG 2012 and my score below 250. what explanations I would bring?
1.I have ADHD
2.Iam lazy
3.I dont care, because I have connections and get residency no matter what
4.Iam not a dumb, but not really a good test taker(freak)

Now, since Im an IMG, my explanation for my low score would be:
1.English is my second language
2.Full time work and 2 dependents
3.I care and try to get connections through myself, not family or friends(they re all overseas)
4. Im not a dumb, but not really a good test taker

This is who I AM, and that why I CAN justify

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Lets see , if Im an AMG, YOG 2012 and my score below 250. what explanations I would bring?
1.I have ADHD
2.Iam lazy
3.I dont care, because I have connections and get residency no matter what
4.Iam not a dumb, but not really a good test taker(freak)

Now, since Im an IMG, my explanation for my low score would be:
1.English is my second language
2.Full time work and 2 dependents
3.I care and try to get connections through myself, not family or friends(they re all overseas)
4. Im not a dumb, but not really a good test taker

This is who I AM, and that why I CAN justify
Being an AMG isn't that easy, they go through tons of filtration before they get there. They are the cream of the crop, especially in taking standardized tests which I believe plays a tremendous role in all this. Also, none of the AMG's actually have the attitude "I have connections and get residency no matter what". They are actually just as scared as you and I when it comes to matching.

Also, the people who have dependents. The average age of matriculation for an AMG is 23, most of which are married and have kids. So no, you aren't the only one in the same situation. Also, the lack of debit also benefits you in ways that AMGs aren't so privileged to have. Just one of the many variables.
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Being an AMG isn't that easy, they go through tons of filtration before they get there. They are the cream of the crop, especially in taking standardized tests which I believe plays a tremendous role in all this. Also, none of the AMG's actually have the attitude "I have connections and get residency no matter what". They are actually just as scared as you and I when it comes to matching.

Also, the people who have dependents. The average age of matriculation for an AMG is 23, most of which are married and have kids. So no, you aren't the only one in the same situation. Also, the lack of debit also benefits you in ways that AMGs aren't so privileged to have. Just one of the many variables.
Honey, as you said "cream of the crop" should always get high score.Because, they re best of the best.Then, who will ever tell you he (she) has connections?Its a secret weapon
They might be married (not most of them, no!), but they dont have dependents, simply because they dont work when they re students! its impossible and totaly understandable!
P.S. you re funny!
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Being an AMG isn't that easy, they go through tons of filtration before they get there. They are the cream of the crop, especially in taking standardized tests which I believe plays a tremendous role in all this. Also, none of the AMG's actually have the attitude "I have connections and get residency no matter what". They are actually just as scared as you and I when it comes to matching.

Also, the people who have dependents. The average age of matriculation for an AMG is 23, most of which are married and have kids. So no, you aren't the only one in the same situation. Also, the lack of debit also benefits you in ways that AMGs aren't so privileged to have. Just one of the many variables.
Going to any med school is not easy but yes there is a difference in the level of competition which varies from country to country

To claim that AMGs are more smarter becoz they they gave there steps during med school and a IMG took 6 months off so his scores dont matter much is probably a wrong notion which you and your PDs share . AMGs have shelfs exams and their school makes them take nbme to know what they are scoring you have a complete practice about how to go about the steps compared to am IMG , yet an IMG works his ass to have a 10 points higher than you so that can clearly prove they are better and this is just a way to justify their low scores saying IMGs take time off . If there are many financial problem , what makes you think IMG dont have financial problems ???? doing an months elective costs 2000 $ as fee plus your cost to stay and other expenses ( we are not crying about it but to say only AMGS have financial trouble after staying USA , do you expect third world country men to be richer to afford the dollar conversion easily )

No one here denies that their should not be bias ,sure prefer AMGs over IMGs but to say our scores are better would be wrong !

the sole objective of this post is not to raise concern over bias against IMG but lets not put down their effort by saying you take time off .
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Honey, as you said "cream of the crop" should always get high score.Because, they re best of the best.Then, who will ever tell you he (she) has connections?Its a secret weapon
They might be married (not most of them, no!), but they dont have dependents, simply because they dont work when they re students! its impossible and totaly understandable!
P.S. you re funny!
I would say the MD students are the cream of the crop, they've scored extremely well on all standardized exams: SAT, MCAT, GMAT, USMLE etc. along with maintaining GPA's and extracurriculars.

Um, if you have a child, doesn't matter if you don't work, the child is your dependent because it is your legal obligation to provide for the child. Therefore, a dependent, based on the legal definition means that you require support from someone else, in this case the parent.

Now I don't have stats on what percentage of American students have kids, but I've encountered many seniors and PGY1s who have kids. Funny huh?
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Going to any med school is not easy but yes there is a difference in the level of competition which varies from country to country

To claim that AMGs are more smarter becoz they they gave there steps during med school and a IMG took 6 months off so his scores dont matter much is probably a wrong notion which you and your PDs share . AMGs have shelfs exams and their school makes them take nbme to know what they are scoring you have a complete practice about how to go about the steps compared to am IMG , yet an IMG works his ass to have a 10 points higher than you so that can clearly prove they are better and this is just a way to justify their low scores saying IMGs take time off . If there are many financial problem , what makes you think IMG dont have financial problems ???? doing an months elective costs 2000 $ as fee plus your cost to stay and other expenses ( we are not crying about it but to say only AMGS have financial trouble after staying USA , do you expect third world country men to be richer to afford the dollar conversion easily )

No one here denies that their should not be bias ,sure prefer AMGs over IMGs but to say our scores are better would be wrong !

the sole objective of this post is not to raise concern over bias against IMG but lets not put down their effort by saying you take time off .
Hey, as a fellow IMG I have no objections to what you're trying to state.

But prolonged time off no matter what reason is a gap in your CV and thus negatively impacts you because PD's have encountered thousands of IMG's who study and just study for the exam.
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I would say the MD students are the cream of the crop, they've scored extremely well on all standardized exams: SAT, MCAT, GMAT, USMLE etc. along with maintaining GPA's and extracurriculars.

Um, if you have a child, doesn't matter if you don't work, the child is your dependent because it is your legal obligation to provide for the child. Therefore, a dependent, based on the legal definition means that you require support from someone else, in this case the parent.

Now I don't have stats on what percentage of American students have kids, but I've encountered many seniors and PGY1s who have kids. Funny huh?
Just wonder... if you fail board exam in your country, how would you explain it?
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Hey, as a fellow IMG I have no objections to what you're trying to state.

But prolonged time off no matter what reason is a gap in your CV and thus negatively impacts you because PD's have encountered thousands of IMG's who study and just study for the exam.
yes thats true . that is exactly what i am trying to justify that though they take time off their are reasons to it : IMGs need to read things that they read years ago and need to learn how to answer clinical MCQs but i guess that is not taken into consideration + need to score 10 points higher than AMG to prove that same PD and give him a reason to select you over an AMG .

anyways thats the rules you have to play by and i think IMGs are pretty happy to make it no matter what .

Peace !
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yes thats true . that is exactly what i am trying to justify that though they take time off their are reasons to it : IMGs need to read things that they read years ago and need to learn how to answer clinical MCQs but i guess that is not taken into consideration + need to score 10 points higher than AMG to prove that same PD and give him a reason to select you over an AMG .

anyways thats the rules you have to play by and i think IMGs are pretty happy to make it no matter what .

Peace !
Do not forget that USMLE scores are practically the only thing with which a PD can evaluate an IMG, whereas for AMGs there are MANY other factors involved and as, if not more, important. Also, most keep forgetting that USMLE steps were not created to rank applicants for residencies, but as the basic knowledge needed to become a licensed doctor. So marina99's fixation on scores is because she's coming from the IMG world, like I think all of us are. For an AMG, getting a 230 could probably get him/her into even Harvard and the like in some specialties if they have excellent LORs and MSPE.

We are all guilty of generalisations and using anecdotes as rules. In general, IMGs do take longer to prepare and this skews the numbers. There have been many points made on both 'sides' and I think that this cannot be objectively decided upon. However, PDs ARE weary that IMGs tend to take a year off and they don't like this, because AMGs usually have school commitments, maybe rotations, volunteer work, part-time jobs, maybe a family....they have a lot on their plate too!

@Hitman: You tried to win an argument by calling me 'truly an AMG'. I assure you I don't have greencard, I don't have citizenship. Like I said: I have no ties to the USA whatsoever. However, since you are willing to spread false rumours, like a child, please see page 6/table 2 of the document linked below to find that IMGs really have lower scores than AMGs (7 points in Step 1 and 12 point in Step 2).

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

I have evidence of a 'national' level. Where is yours? PDs you talked to? haha
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Exactly..i completely agree with Hitman..I am an IMG,need visa and scored not in 220s even..gave my exam during med school 3rd year...two of my friends gave with me and scored almost same and one with high 220s and one with 240s...so who says IMGs always score high!!!
Plus you dont take into account AMGs getting best programmes and best residencies like derma,rad onco etc...i know many peeps with 250s score who have to settle with IM in moderately good programmes because they are IMGs needing visa..they dont complain though..We are existing in separate footings and i don't think we should argue over who is better...it will be better if we concentrate over this year's Match and pray AMGs dont take those bits and pieces programmes which were left for us...
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Exactly..i completely agree with Hitman..I am an IMG,need visa and scored not in 220s even..gave my exam during med school 3rd year...two of my friends gave with me and scored almost same and one with high 220s and one with 240s...so who says IMGs always score high!!!
Plus you dont take into account AMGs getting best programmes and best residencies like derma,rad onco etc...i know many peeps with 250s score who have to settle with IM in moderately good programmes because they are IMGs needing visa..they dont complain though..We are existing in separate footings and i don't think we should argue over who is better...it will be better if we concentrate over this year's Match and pray AMGs dont take those bits and pieces programmes which were left for us...
In my original post I mentioned that higher scores among IMGs was an overall finding statistical finding not an individualisation to X,Y or Z. Guys, lets not argue over this as this is clearly outlined in the statistics published every year, last 2012 "charting outcomes" by NRMP. If you go through this publicly available document, one would conclude that for every specialty the median and SD of IMG scores are higher compared with AMG scores (data is published side by side). Moreover, my post is not about trampling down on AMGs but to highlight the strength of IMGs, because I have just seen quite a lot of pessimism and negative rants on this forum about how inferior we are compared with AMGs, which does not help anyone. We all ought to think beyond our scores (which is set in stone now) and play the game of matching to our strengths. IMGs are not "beggars" as someone mentioned but we have all worked hard to get here, so let us be proud about it. PDs are NOT doing us a favour by selecting us, they do so because they want us. So let us have a positive mindset, despite past struggles and failures. Most important of all let us trust in God. "With God all things are possible" and I am a living testament to that. So let us all do each other a great favour, encourage one another.
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Wink BIG thread BIG POSTS

i left this thread with few words yesterday
today it s long like a novel
what is all that
can someone summarize????
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i left this thread with few words yesterday
today it s long like a novel
what is all that
can someone summarize????
There are too many different opinions to summarize. In general:

Mostly, some people are saying that IMGs are better (absolute fact). Some others do not agree (absolute fact) and others say that it cannot be evaluated/it depends (like me).

There is also some false data. The single most verifiable one is (and which I have already posted about but apparently it needs to be moderated because of a hyperlink) that IMGs have a better step score than AMGs. This is not true as one can see in NRMP Charting Outcomes for 2011. There isn't one for 2012, unlike what MarkUSMLE said. I think they produce it every 2 years. AMGs have a higher Step 1 score by 7 points and a higher Step 2 score by 12 points.

All the above posts talk about Step scores of IMGs vs AMGs. When will everyone understand that for AMGs, step scores do not have the same value? Go check in the Charting Outcomes of the Match 2011. For many specialties, an American with a 220/230 has a higher chance of matching than an IMG with a 250/260. Do you know why? Because PDs also value very highly the MSPE and the peace of mind that comes with studying in a LCME-accredited medical school. This is the greatest difference. This is what the resentful IMGs need to understand. I say this without even going into the details of how much they hate the visa paperwork (especially H1B), or for example the very strong accent non-native English speakers from certain countries have.

I certainly wish that there will still remain some hope for us FMGs in the future, but if thousands of IMGs will continue with this adamant pursuit of a US residency, THOUSANDS will be sorely disappointed. I'm not a pessimist, but a realist.

P.S. Just in case my other post isn't mentioned: Hitman I have no greencard or visa or whatever. Stop making assumptions. A doctor should know better.

P.S.S. I am not saying that us IMGs shouldn't try, but those IMGs who spend 3-10 years in the USA working as assistants, flipping burgers, taxi drivers and hoping year on year will need to realise that in the future such a thing my not happen, especially by 2016/7 when there will be more AMGs than residency positions. :/

Last edited by mattard; 10-14-2012 at 03:46 AM. Reason: Added P.S.S.
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I understand what you're trying to do.

The points you've made that I've bolded, cannot be put into numbers, so therefore meaningless.

Also, the fact that IMG's have higher board scores can't be compared to in respect to "apples to apples".

AMG's take the exams during medical school, in between classes, research, extracurriculars.

IMG's in contrast take an average of 6 months for Step 1, 4 Months for Step 2 CK, and another 1-2 Months for Step 2 CS of DEDICATED sitting at home, studying for 8 hours/day. They need 1 year worth of dedicated study time inorder to meet or exceed results produced by their American counterparts. This is the #1 factor that PD's look at when they gauge IMG's with average or above average scores.

If you really wanted to make a fair comparrision, give AMG's a dedicated year to take the exams, the Step average will be +2SD above what it is now.

Also, like Dr. JPRizal stated, IMG's should be grateful they are even getting an opportunity. No other country gives the same opportunity. If America wants to favor its own, then its in their best interest.

PS: I'm an US-IMG.
If the exams we had to take at the end of 2nd and 4rth year were the USMLEs, (which are different in style from the annual written exams in my country) the student would have spent a year or two (ie 1st and 2nd for step 1 and 3rd, 4rth year for step 2) of med school preparing for it and I would clearly expect that student to do better than an IMG who has to revise the portion 2 years later and learn new protocols over a limited period of time.

That being said, I think it's not discrimination to choose to give an opportunity to citizens of your own country over a foreigner. AMGs spend a lot on education and would be in huge debt if they do not match. The country owes them that.
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i left this thread with few words yesterday
today it s long like a novel
what is all that
can someone summarize????
In summary, its not as easy for an IMG to get his/her desired residency as compared to an AMG. If you think that's wrong, then think again. Many other countries don't have enough training positions for foreign grads (UK, Australia etc). Its only the US which accommodates thousands of IMGs into its training programs every year. Admitted there are a lot of good candidates who cant get it in the first try, but if you work hard in the US you can get somewhere.

Its natural for PDs to select AMGs first because its their right, but sometimes they do also select some very good IMGs over their own students. And there are also some programs who always take IMGs only. So you should be thankful for that. It does not work like that anywhere else.
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Personally I think the US should close residency to all non US citizens. Study in your own countries.

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Stop the negativity fellow colleagues

Being FMG is affecting my application but hey I gave it my best, and the ego is ok if I dont match since I gave it all.

My whole 2011-2012 experience gave me fresh perspective that i feel its good to share now

I did usmles during last year medschool and internship year at home (coinciding with mass protests, emergency zone hospital, thugs near home, drama). I was imprisoned, tortured and almost died So I'm just thankful for gift of life and safety of my family. And we all should be.

Big respect to both AMGs and IMGs for their hard work. Met truly amazing drs. Unfortunately there r not enough slots for us all

We all invested too much time and effort to be where we are. But its the last mile. Dont be blinded by cynicism nor clouded by artificial hope. Keep it real guys
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Personally I think the US should close residency to all non US citizens. Study in your own countries.

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True to your name, you have made a complete ass of yourself on this forum. I don't think your comments are appreciated by anyone on this IMG forum (I am sure all will agree). I think there needs to be healthy competition for the match and such comments don't serve any purpose apart from creating a bad taste.
US is a land of opportunities right from the time it was discovered on the map and no one has a right to discourage a fellow aspirant to be shut out just because you got there first (either you or your preceeding generations).

Your comments do not make any sense unless the land originally belonged to you as a native. So don't degrade yourself on this forum.
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Personally I think the US should close residency to all non US citizens. Study in your own countries.

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While many Americans and decision-makers may agree with you in concept, your last sentence sends a very negative message about you.
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While many Americans and decision-makers may agree with you in concept, your last sentence sends a very negative message about you.
I totally agree with you Matard, on the negativity of joker's comments. This forum should not tolerate any negative campaign against IMGs, from whomsoever it may arise.
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  #35  
Old 10-15-2012
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Originally Posted by 5150joker View Post
Personally I think the US should close residency to all non US citizens. Study in your own countries.

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Lol what?

Okay, everyone dont get all bent out of shape over this guy's comments.
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  #36  
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Originally Posted by MarkUSMLE View Post
True to your name, you have made a complete ass of yourself on this forum. I don't think your comments are appreciated by anyone on this IMG forum (I am sure all will agree). I think there needs to be healthy competition for the match and such comments don't serve any purpose apart from creating a bad taste.
US is a land of opportunities right from the time it was discovered on the map and no one has a right to discourage a fellow aspirant to be shut out just because you got there first (either you or your preceeding generations).

Your comments do not make any sense unless the land originally belonged to you as a native. So don't degrade yourself on this forum.
You think I care if you don't like the comment? Truth is we don't need more non US IMGs in the US. So many of you arrogantly think you deserve to be in our country and you don't. How many FMGs do your countries of origin allow? The US isn't some open borderless country where everyone is welcomed to flock to, we have enough citizens already.

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  #37  
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He's right folks......
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  #38  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5150joker View Post
You think I care if you don't like the comment? Truth is we don't need more non US IMGs in the US. So many of you arrogantly think you deserve to be in our country and you don't. How many FMGs do your countries of origin allow? The US isn't some open borderless country where everyone is welcomed to flock to, we have enough citizens already.

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I think you should change your name to " The Perfect Troll "

you think we are pissed by your comments but we are not affected much .

USA needs FMGs at all cost and makes million on FMG applications and electives , its a big business and we get residency in return a win win situation so its never gonna stop . we are not at loss but you fools are so save your sorry ass as we ( FMGs ) are going to kick it no matter how much you cry ......
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  #39  
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He's right folks......

Another Troll ( or a fool )

i guess one was not enough .........
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  #40  
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I wouldn't say that if I were u......
Im not a troll
and im definitely not a fool
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  #41  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5150joker View Post
You think I care if you don't like the comment? Truth is we don't need more non US IMGs in the US. So many of you arrogantly think you deserve to be in our country and you don't. How many FMGs do your countries of origin allow? The US isn't some open borderless country where everyone is welcomed to flock to, we have enough citizens already.

Sent from my GT-N7000
Truth is "we" don't need more non US IMGs in the US

Let me clarify, the "we" that the Joker is referring to in his comment is a breed of bigoted, prejudiced and intolerant asses like himself, who ultimately get eliminated by a phenomenon of natural selection just like hitler, mussolini etc...., who played the race card. History repeats itself! The joker is now playing the IMG with a green card

We honestly don't care about what you think. Insecurity about your own future is quite evidently manifest in your comments. No matter what the competition, if your scores and profile are good enough you get in but if not your GC will not save you!
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  #42  
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He is an AMG...
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  #43  
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If Joker is an AMG that makes it even worse! Generally AMGs I have known are a reasonably confident lot. Never known them to put down IMGs to feel confident. Maybe our joker on the forum is an exception!
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