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  #1  
Old 02-10-2012
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Neuro Amnesia; hippocampus or mammilary body lesion?

inability to make new memories is lesion to hippocampus or mammilary body ??

first aid 2011 page 403 says hippocampus lesion -anterograde amnesia
first aid 2011 page 443 says mammilary body -anterograde amnesia

Please help !!
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Old 02-10-2012
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A lesion in the hippocampus results in the individual being unable to store long-term memory.Memory of the remote past events before the lesion is devoloped remains unaffected.This is known as anterograde amnesia!!!(clinical Neuroanatomy by R.S.Snell)
you can check out this :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterograde_amnesia
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hippocampus for sure
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My doubt is why in first aid pg 443 its given mammillary bodies lesion is korsokoff syndrome leads to anterograde amnesia ??
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Hippocampus lesion - anterograde amnesia
Mamillary Bodies Thiamine Deficiency - anterograde amnesia

I think both can cause it, one is a lesion, while the other is a deficiency in Thiamine.
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Look for Papez circuit.. youll have your concept clear

IN short both are involved because both are part of the Papez circuit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XpaezX View Post
Look for Papez circuit.. youll have your concept clear

IN short both are involved because both are part of the Papez circuit
can u elaborate little bit,my exam is in 4 days.i do not have time to check it.
thank you
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@Xpaezx if we have to choose one -for inability to make new memories -choose which one and why ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by step_enhancer View Post
can u elaborate little bit,my exam is in 4 days.i do not have time to check it.
thank you
Sure, The papez circuit is part of the limbic system involved in emotion and memory processing, it has both the hippocampus and the mamillary bodies involved.
There are 3 types of memory, short term, medium term and long term.

Short term memory (things that can be recalled within minutes or some hours are stored in the hippocampus)
Medium term memory (things that can be recalled within several hours and few days are stored in both the hippocampus and The mamillary bodies)

thats why both are part of anterograde memory and both are screwed in alcoholism, thiamine deficiency and a bunch of other diseases.

here is a link in case you want to read it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papez_circuit
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Default Hippocampus

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Originally Posted by step_enhancer View Post
@Xpaezx if we have to choose one -for inability to make new memories -choose which one and why ?
If both are in the answer choices and they DONT tell you the patient is an alcoholic go for hippocampus, as it is the FIRST part involved in NEW memory procesing.

If both are there and they give you either ALCOHOLIC OR THIAMINE deficiency you have to pick mamillary bodies.

Thats what I would and will do anyways
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Quote:
Originally Posted by step_enhancer View Post
inability to make new memories is lesion to hippocampus or mammilary body ??

first aid 2011 page 403 says hippocampus lesion -anterograde amnesia
first aid 2011 page 443 says mammilary body -anterograde amnesia

Please help !!
Hang on a second.
-FA p443 says Korsakoff is classic anterograde amnesia, but it may also casue retrograde amnesia. So, its amnesia is nonspecific, depending on which brain structure is damaged. We know that Korsakoff is not gonna happen in a short time, brain lesions happen in the order of thiamine def --> wernike ( still reversible ) --> Korsakoff ( irreversible ). Confabulations requires at least 10 years of alcoholism. ( Kaplan 's psychiatry book ). There are not just the mamillary bodies that are hit on but they are the first to be affected. So, Korsakoff's=irreversible,damaged mamilary bodies, nonspecific amnesia, mostly anterograde but retrograde also possible.

- The hippocampus is in the temporal lobe, consolidating short term memory into long term memory, so damage of the "seahorse" will cause the loss of anterograde memory only. Anterograde amnesia due to hippocampus lesion is probably the consequence of (1)head trauma->temporal lobe lesion (2)hypoxia->neuron death (3)HSV-1 infection of temporal lobe (4)epilepsy. Alcoholism is not specific for temporal lobe damage.

Best luck for your exam!!!
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  #12  
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@Xpaezx thanks a lot .

@patho2012 awesome explanation! thank you so much

So if the Questions stem

alcoholic ,unable to make new memories - mammillary bodies

if no history of alcohol and unable to make memory - hippocampus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by step_enhancer View Post
inability to make new memories is lesion to hippocampus or mammilary body ??

first aid 2011 page 403 says hippocampus lesion -anterograde amnesia
first aid 2011 page 443 says mammilary body -anterograde amnesia

Please help !!
I'm pretty sure Mamillary bodies lesion cause Retrograde Amnesia (Korsakoff component of wernicke-Korsakoff Encephalopathy)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by step_enhancer View Post
@Xpaezx thanks a lot .

@patho2012 awesome explanation! thank you so much

So if the Questions stem

alcoholic ,unable to make new memories - mammillary bodies

if no history of alcohol and unable to make memory - hippocampus
Exactly, also depends on what they give you, for example if it is anything related to hypoxia then hippocampus would be the best choice as it is very sensitive to changes in blood flow (its the kidney's medulla equivalent)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XpaezX View Post
Exactly, also depends on what they give you, for example if it is anything related to hypoxia then hippocampus would be the best choice as it is very sensitive to changes in blood flow (its the kidney's medulla equivalent)
interest...TED! Can you say more about the kidney medulla 's characteristic? thanks
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I think both are true, as in Wernicke's encephalopathy both are affected
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Originally Posted by patho2012 View Post
interest...TED! Can you say more about the kidney medulla 's characteristic? thanks
Sure, the kidney's medulla receives only 10% of the cardiac output that the kidneys are entitled to, so logically any slight change in the quantity of blood floW causes ischemia as it is already a little bit hypoxic.. Poor medulla lives on the edge you know
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Sure, the kidney's medulla receives only 10% of the cardiac output that the kidneys are entitled to, so logically any slight change in the quantity of blood floW causes ischemia as it is already a little bit hypoxic.. Poor medulla lives on the edge you know
How is the hippocampus compared to that? I mean, what causes the O2 sensitivity of the hippocampus or something like that that could possibly appear in the question? Can you plz elaborate on that?
Hippocampus is sexy, btw.
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Old 02-12-2012
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Originally Posted by patho2012 View Post
How is the hippocampus compared to that? I mean, what causes the O2 sensitivity of the hippocampus or something like that that could possibly appear in the question? Can you plz elaborate on that?
Hippocampus is sexy, btw.
Well the Hippocampis doesnt follow the exact mechanism, Hippocampal neurons, Purkinje cells and neurons in layers 3 to 5 are extremely sensitive to hypoxia due NMDA receptor hypoxia induced damage to these particular areas.

I tried to do the analogy in a way of saying that hypoxia screws your memory up just like it screws your kidney-s medulla up

If you want to know more information in Kaplan anatomy book in the neuroscience section theres a detailed explanation there as to why the hippocampus is screwed during hypoxia
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just wanted to add to the above discussion :
i recently read an amazing book by this guy called V S Ramachandran , PHANTOMS IN THE BRAIN : the guy mentions of a particular case where a patient undergoes b/l removal of hippocampus ( this was way back in the 20 th century , when people hadnt yet learned to respect the hippocampus) which resulted in an interesting phenomenon where in the patient could have a perfectly normal conversation with the doctor , even discusses philosophy ,and answers questions pertaining to the past accurately ...but the moment the physician leaves the room and comes back ... the patient talks to the physician as if nothing had happened early on ...in other words ...he has lost the ability to form new memories....
so... as our colleagues had rightly pointed out ... hippocampus is the one involved in forming new memories
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Old 02-16-2012
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i took exam yesterday i had a question exactly on this discussion i.e short term memory loss due to ischemia .i marked hippocampus

thank you all
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i took exam yesterday i had a question exactly on this discussion i.e short term memory loss due to ischemia .i marked hippocampus

thank you all
Hey how was it ????? any tips for ??

how was genetics and DNA stuff ???? i am really bad at it .....
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i took exam yesterday i had a question exactly on this discussion i.e short term memory loss due to ischemia .i marked hippocampus

thank you all
I know you are busy partying right now but at least tell us your experience, your examination date, and all the related if poss.
Wish you a decent score!!!
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I know you are busy partying right now but at least tell us your experience, your examination date, and all the related if poss.
Wish you a decent score!!!
@hitman and @patho2012

my experience is very diff .dint want to freak u guys out .but i got a tougher version of the exam.it was similar in style to uworld and difficulty was exactly like UWSA 1.
i m pissed and feel scared now.i bought call of duy MW3 and do not want to open it even .i feel depressed ,the exam maker literally efffed me .i had very long stems like nbme 12 and the content of the questions because of very lengthy had everything.i had questions form everywhere man .i felt its a huge exam .few questions were FA and UW concept based .but most of them strangely worded to trip you.
my exam did have lots of weird microbiology but do not get carried away with that may be its their experimental Qs.
having a tougher exam means i may have an easier scoring.so lets see.
the length of exam was like nbme 12 .very lengthy stems and difficulty much tougher than nbme 7 ,felt more like uworld.

but again everyones exam is different .its just my experience .sorry not very encouraging but telling the truth.
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@hitman and @patho2012

my experience is very diff .dint want to freak u guys out .but i got a tougher version of the exam.it was similar in style to uworld and difficulty was exactly like UWSA 1.
i m pissed and feel scared now.i bought call of duy MW3 and do not want to open it even .i feel depressed ,the exam maker literally efffed me .i had very long stems like nbme 12 and the content of the questions because of very lengthy had everything.i had questions form everywhere man .i felt its a huge exam .few questions were FA and UW concept based .but most of them strangely worded to trip you.
my exam did have lots of weird microbiology but do not get carried away with that may be its their experimental Qs.
having a tougher exam means i may have an easier scoring.so lets see.
the length of exam was like nbme 12 .very lengthy stems and difficulty much tougher than nbme 7 ,felt more like uworld.

but again everyones exam is different .its just my experience .sorry not very encouraging but telling the truth.
Hey buddy relax , you did what you can , gave in your best now leave rest to GOD .... no one knows the marking so it might turn out beautifully .......
you are not discouraging us but telling us the other side of the coin which is not generally told ... will motivate us more to prepare for the test ....

Efforts never go waste no matter what the examiner sets up , since this is a standardised test the result will be fair ......everything will go great ....... !!!! Keep faith ......
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@step enhancer...thnks fr sharing ur experience....dont worry...ull be good...hope a great score for u....one doubt what do u thnk abt behav sciences ...im very weak in ethics too...pls suggest somethn for me for behav scen.

@hitman...well said buddy...we do need to know if exam s tuf...who knows . we may get a tuf one fr ourselves...better to get prepared..
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@step enhancer...thnks fr sharing ur experience....dont worry...ull be good...hope a great score for u....one doubt what do u thnk abt behav sciences ...im very weak in ethics too...pls suggest somethn for me for behav scen.

@hitman...well said buddy...we do need to know if exam s tuf...who knows . we may get a tuf one fr ourselves...better to get prepared..
for behav ,i had 2 question of PPV calculation ,simple .biostat from uworld is more tha enough.i mean u shld know all concepts of uworld i even i had that correlation coffecient graph Q of uworld .

behav science seemed easy not very big stems ,simple scenarios that we have come across. watch dr doughrety videos they r gold and read uworld complete explanations of ethics .i think it covers most of ethics Q.i dint have any ethic Q that made me super confused .they were easy worded , similar concepts we have already come across .so dont worry.
if u have super tough ethic Q that u just cannot deal with them its probably experimental ,dont waste time on those Qs on the exam .Beware !

and @hitman thanks ,very well said .
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Quote:
Originally Posted by step_enhancer View Post
for behav ,i had 2 question of PPV calculation ,simple .biostat from uworld is more tha enough.i mean u shld know all concepts of uworld i even i had that correlation coffecient graph Q of uworld .

behav science seemed easy not very big stems ,simple scenarios that we have come across. watch dr doughrety videos they r gold and read uworld complete explanations of ethics .i think it covers most of ethics Q.i dint have any ethic Q that made me super confused .they were easy worded , similar concepts we have already come across .so dont worry.
if u have super tough ethic Q that u just cannot deal with them its probably experimental ,dont waste time on those Qs on the exam .Beware !

and @hitman thanks ,very well said .
hey how about genetics and DNA stuff ???
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Old 02-16-2012
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Embarrassed relax

Bro a friend of mine also had the same experience as you and he ended up getting like 230, sometimes when the exam seems hard as hell people get good scores so there is no point on feeling bad right now.

You should open your MW3 call of duty copy and play like a boss! is an extremely awesome game with a good story line (if you played the previous one)

hey maybe if you have an xbox live account we could play! (after im done with my step of course)

Relax and party
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hey how about genetics and DNA stuff ???
some genetics questions that i had were out of world tough,may be its there experimental questions ,do not get bothered to get them right u shld be a genetic major to even attempt those .i remeber 2-3 Qs i just dint bother reading,guessed it and moved on.but some genetics question were doable through uworld and first aid knowledge.

my experimental junk was of molecular genetics and microbiology.there is no way to deal with those Qs.

the thing is i am very confused right now ,after i get my score i will be able to figure out everything .i had nbme 7 and 11 235 and 231 two weeks before exam
so technically i was at 235-240 in the map on the exam day,but now i have no idea.i feel it was such a respectable exam ,even i get 210 i will be happy.
each question seemed original and new .exam makers rock .i seriously doubt Mr Goljan who said " poor exam makers have no new way of making questions"
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Bro a friend of mine also had the same experience as you and he ended up getting like 230, sometimes when the exam seems hard as hell people get good scores so there is no point on feeling bad right now.

You should open your MW3 call of duty copy and play like a boss! is an extremely awesome game with a good story line (if you played the previous one)

hey maybe if you have an xbox live account we could play! (after im done with my step of course)

Relax and party
Thanks a lot .its a relief reading ure post. i will surely play COD MW3
i have to let it go .there is no choice now .
i do not have xbox .i play it on my new dell xps .
gluck to you .i hope u do awesome .best wishes to you
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